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Old 07-04-2011, 21:38   #91
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by limejucer View Post
Is it just me or was that an realy bad bit of sailing. In post 45 gunboat overtaking
The gun boat was the giveway vessel and at about 14 seconds into the video the stand on boat had to change course due to fear of collision.
I would be ashamed to sail in such a way as to cause another boat to fear my actions.
off couse if they were racing we all know they are mad so no problem

Alternativley i might need new glasses?
I'd bet the scene was staged - seems a low likelyhood that the two boats plus a camera helicopter "just happened" to be in the same place at the same time.
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Old 08-04-2011, 21:20   #92
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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very impressive 44c. Using your numbers , say 10 knots boatspeed, and 13 knots true wind speed, we can crunch these to get a wind over deck (aws) of just over 20 and a true wind angle of 52 degrees.

So your obviously taking through around 104 degrees plus leeway (say 5 degrees each tack), giving a track of around 114 over the ground in flat water.

Say add another 10 degrees of leeway for rough conditions and it sounds like your track over the bottom is down around 120 to 130 degrees between tacks.

Real world results for our op?.
You pull some numbers out of your arse and call them real world results? For a boat you've never sailed on?

Only 10 degrees extra leeway for rough conditions.... gee that's generous of you. Just how rough do you reckon it gets in 13 knots wind? How much leeway does YOUR boat make?

When it IS lumpy, say mid 20's and over, if we want to slow the boat down by we often do so by pointing higher. In the stronger breeze our TWA is higher relative to AWA also.

On the plotter our tacking angles usually remain around 100 degrees over the ground. (Barring tidal influence, which can make it look worse or better)

IMO our plotter represents the "real world" better than the numbers you dreamed up.
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Old 09-04-2011, 11:56   #93
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

The cats I've spent time on (both lagoons) seemed to be happiest around 60 degrees off the wind (including a decent amount of leeway)- it felt like they were pinching much higher than that. To clarify, the course they made over the ground was about 120 degrees different between tacks.
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Old 09-04-2011, 11:59   #94
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

When I first read the question, I thought of my cat looking up a tree at a covey of birds up there. And the answer is; To the top of the tree...
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Old 09-04-2011, 13:16   #95
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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The cats I've spent time on (both lagoons) seemed to be happiest around 60 degrees off the wind (including a decent amount of leeway)- it felt like they were pinching much higher than that. To clarify, the course they made over the ground was about 120 degrees different between tacks.

So there have been around 100 posts of which 97 where off the direct topic. Thanks for the simple and brief opinion. I agree. The cats I've chartered and the one I now own can sail closer then 60 degrees but it really doesn't make sense. The loss of speed and increase in pitching makes it undesirable. Last week we motored from Oyster Pond in St. Martin to St. Bart's as it was directly upwind and we didn't want to spend 6 hours to sail 14 miles. But from there the rest of our trip was sailable so we where very happy.

Crumudgion, if your looking at a catamaran for upwind performance, stop now. If your looking for a great platform to enjoy the oceans with your family, their great.
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Old 09-04-2011, 14:52   #96
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

So many argumentative posts, so much "liar, liar pants on fire"... I'm glad folks aren't like this at the grocery store. Only behind a keyboard or a steering wheel. But I can be opinionated too, and sometimes that seems argumentative, when condensed down into a post. I hope it's all in fun. I think we learn from the exchange.

The only real data lie in speed polar diagrams. Some are generated by velocity prediction programs:
http://www.pdq36.com/PDQ36%20polar%20diagram.pdf
Some are based on owner measurements:
Sail Delmarva: Search results for speed polar

If I really wanted to buy a given boat I would look for these and for handicap ratings; even as a cruiser that does care to race any more (I had a few high performance cats), I still like to understand what I'm sailing.

Any given boat can point very high, but it is not necessarily the VMG, and the best VMG is not always good. On racing cats and planning monohulls, the speed polar bulges far out to the side on a reach; it doesn't mean they don't go to the weather, it just means they reach like crazy.

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PS. In the Gunboat video, it should have been obvious that the monohull had to bear off the let them blast past at a lower angle. Yeah, a publicity shot showing an exceptional cat, hull up on a reach. Fun, but not meaningful to this thread. But fun is good.
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Old 09-04-2011, 15:06   #97
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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...The cats I've chartered and the one I now own can sail closer then 60 degrees but it really doesn't make sense....

Crumudgion, if your looking at a catamaran for upwind performance, stop now. If your looking for a great platform to enjoy the oceans with your family, their great.
Sadly the OP asked about apparent wind angles (how high can it point). I presume you're talking about 1/2 COG which includes leeway and so on. In any case you're talking about your experiences in motor sailors.

As to your second point the fastest sailboats to weather are multihulls. Even as cruised multis can be competitive with similar service and sized monos hard on the wind. My experience is that in our loaded down voyaging cat we are quicker than most 40-45 foot cruisers to weather. It is all about choices. I totally understand the attraction of condomarans. I like motor sailors too. But they are not the alpha and omega of multihulls. If beating is your thing the right multi could be a great choice.

Tom.
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Old 09-04-2011, 16:09   #98
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Sadly the OP asked about apparent wind angles (how high can it point). I presume you're talking about 1/2 COG which includes leeway and so on. In any case you're talking about your experiences in motor sailors.

As to your second point the fastest sailboats to weather are multihulls. Even as cruised multis can be competitive with similar service and sized monos hard on the wind. My experience is that in our loaded down voyaging cat we are quicker than most 40-45 foot cruisers to weather. It is all about choices. I totally understand the attraction of condomarans. I like motor sailors too. But they are not the alpha and omega of multihulls. If beating is your thing the right multi could be a great choice.

Tom.
Sadly?

Whatever - great post - it really follows in the latest Cruisers Forum thread dialogue. I guess your loaded down cruising cat is SO much better then my loaded down motor sailor.
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Old 09-04-2011, 16:16   #99
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Sadly?
Sadly only because coaching weatherliness in terms of AWA confuses the issue.

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Whatever - great post - it really follows in the latest Cruisers Forum thread dialogue. I guess your loaded down cruising cat is SO much better then my loaded down motor sailor.
Better? "Whatever." Different certainly.

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Old 09-04-2011, 16:23   #100
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Crumudgion, if your looking at a catamaran for upwind performance, stop now. If your looking for a great platform to enjoy the oceans with your family, their great.
But the fact is, the fastest upwind boats in the world are cat's and tri's.

The fastest boats on ANY point of sail are multihulls. Racing boats obviously.

But really that just means you have to decide on the compromise that suits you - certainly boats like Lagoons etc are not optimised for windward sailing, but they are not the only boats to choose from - some cruising cats sail a LOT better. Yes, even loaded down.
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Old 09-04-2011, 16:28   #101
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Did either of you gather that Crumudion is interested in a racing boat to cruise on? Who cares that the fastest boats are cat's in regard to THIS discussion.

And TMS - that was really sad for you? I read it much more as an arrogant statement on your part which had no purpose towards the OP's question. There are thousands of Fountaine Pajots and it would be a surprise to all of them to find that their boats are motor sailers.
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Old 09-04-2011, 16:36   #102
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Did either of you gather that Crumudion is interested in a racing boat to cruise on? Who cares that the fastest boats are cat's in regard to THIS discussion.
Because you said, if you want to sail to windward don't look at catamarans.

Fact is cats CAN sail to windward. Its just a matter of choosing the right one, if windward sailing is a priority. Actually it's the same with mono's. They don't all sail well to windward either.
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Old 09-04-2011, 16:54   #103
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Did either of you gather that Crumudion is interested in a racing boat to cruise on? Who cares that the fastest boats are cat's in regard to THIS discussion.

And TMS - that was really sad for you? I read it much more as an arrogant statement on your part which had no purpose towards the OP's question. There are thousands of Fountaine Pajots and it would be a surprise to all of them to find that their boats are motor sailers.
First, I have cruised extensively on a catamaran that sails upwind very well. There are cruising cats that can do that and it is just a matter of deciding if that is important enough to make sacrifices for.

Second, if the FP sails upwind best at 60 degrees AWA it is a very modest performance sail boat. A boat that really sails that poorly to weather will need to motor a good deal. Perhaps I am misunderstanding his statement. But, taking what he typed at face value it sounds like he has a great motorsailor. I don't see that as a pejorative description at all. He has chosen a boat that has wonderful comforts in a great space and seems to work well for him. The FP are very popular so it is a choice that many have made. It seems like a sensible choice to me. My only quibble was that he implied that the windward performance he is talking about is typical of all cruising multihulls. It is not. There are choices and and informed buyers should be aware of what they are.

Tom.
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Old 09-04-2011, 17:01   #104
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Last week we motored from Oyster Pond in St. Martin to St. Bart's as it was directly upwind and we didn't want to spend 6 hours to sail 14 miles. But from there the rest of our trip was sailable so we where very happy.

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There are thousands of Fountaine Pajots and it would be a surprise to all of them to find that their boats are motor sailers.
Hmmm... sounds like the above FP 56 is operated as a motor sailor whether it is one or not! I wonder if her owner is surprised...

Cheers,

Jim ( a monomaran owner who actually likes multis, despite the bad-mouthing I've received when offering my observatons)
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Old 09-04-2011, 17:15   #105
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

i dont know about the 2 hulled models, but my 4 legged one is a good pointer-- is a guard kat so will point at anyone coming near my boat -- he doesnt like wind much, but he will play in the rain.....
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