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Old 07-04-2011, 07:30   #76
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
over 3 metres - wow wont see any of these in our part of the world then.

Seriously how do you deal with a boat that needs 4 metres to float.
I spent some time on a boat with a 4 meter draft. It's no big deal. It keeps you out of some places for sure, but a boat like that (it was 90 feet) has a lot more options for anchoring than a smaller boat with shallow draft, because it lies comfortably in deeper, relatively rougher water.

My boat draws about 2.5 meters. Keeps me out of some places, but I would never trade the performance for shallower draft.

Of course there are some places with such a shallow slope to the seabed -- SW Florida, Bahamas -- that you might not get within sight of land!
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Old 07-04-2011, 07:37   #77
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by Mark Johnson View Post
Good points... By double reefing the main, striking the headsail, and raising the staysail, our 34' Searunner can sail well, HARD on the wind, in over 40 knots, and 15' seas!
Mark
That's how we do it, too, and I think my boat would do better upwind in 40 knots than in 30 knots, because the staysail is not giving quite enough power to drive the boat well in 30 knots (which happens to be too much wind to get anything good out of the yankee).

I've never tried going upwind in 40 knots in my present boat, but I've done it a few times in 30 -- 35 knots (once all the way across the English Channel). In 30 knots with staysail and reefed main and biggish seas, I make five or six knots and tack through probably 120 -- 130 degrees on the GPS. That is high enough to claw off a lee shore, probably, but only just. It's a hard, hard slog to a destination dead upwind, in that configuration. In many boats you simply won't get there.
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Old 07-04-2011, 08:12   #78
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

We have friends that recently traded thier F31 for a Hylas. They loved the Fboat and greatly enjoyed both coastal cruising and trailer cruising with the boat. The Hylas better fit the offshore cruising requirements.

I'm not sure about the "beer on deck" comment, most times I've sailed an Fboat with breeze and chop it's been full gear to stay dry.

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A quick point that I think needs to be emphasized is the size of crew needed, and the comfort on the boat. In race form we can pretty much match any boat on the water with three people onboard a f31, and most of the r/c monohulls have crews of eight+. Also we can leave our beers on the deck, and not worry about them spilling.

From a cruising perspective, I have experienced that I can point as high as any cruising mono if I am willing to give up boat speed. VMG is the way to sail a multi so in most cases it does not make sense to do this. On another note, it is pretty damn awesome in cruising mode to pull up the daggerboard and sail over the bank that most of the other boats are sailing additional miles to avoid.

So on the daggerboard angle, it might not be how high will the boat point, but rather what options does having a daggerboard afford you from a cruising perspective that is a better dialog.
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Old 07-04-2011, 11:45   #79
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Its funny, whether one likes the way it was worded or not, the original post was from a monohull owner who, for reasons related to interior accomodation (bright versus a cave) is considering purchasing a multi. He didn't ask which boat was better to windward in a gale, he didn't ask for comparisons with monohulls on various points of sail - he wanted information concerning the pointing, or tacking angles that he could reasonably expect. How this relates to 'monos are better/safer in a storm' (which is itself a rather questionable proposition), I have no idea. Indeed, I have no idea why monohullers are insisting on posting the performance of their boats, or even comparative race data because that is not what he was asking for (afterall, he himself is a lifelong monohuller).

Whether those extolling the virtues of monohulls at every opportunity are being helpful or not, the very fact that they see the relative performance of monos and multis (on what is the typically the worst point of sail for a multihull), as needing to be debated itself speaks volumes. In any event, what these posts and the responses show is that a well-designed multihull will perform somewhere between reasonably well and very well to windward. Tacking angles will vary, but sailed efficiently, mulithulls are often able to perform as well or better than monos in terms of VMG to windward.

Brad
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Old 07-04-2011, 12:01   #80
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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- he wanted information concerning the pointing, or tacking angles that he could reasonably expect.
That's how I construed his question, too. To rephrase, "What can I expect tacking angles/windward ability to be in real-world general cruising conditions? Do daggerboards help?" Seems to me that's an entirely reasonable question that doesn't involve stirring the emotions of either multi or mono-hullers. We're not talking about multi-million dollar racers with Olympic class crews. We're not even talking about beer can racing. No need to get any of those competitive juices (i.e., testosterone) flowing and no gauntlets being thrown.

I'd expect that all of us could probably improve such things at least some on our respective boats. Rig-tuning, sail-trimming, and crew drills would probably improve the performance on any boat. That's not what I heard him asking.

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Old 07-04-2011, 13:10   #81
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Do daggerboards help?"
ID
Gee Drifter we are really trying to stir the pot now. Daggerboard/mini keel threads are as much fun as anchoring threads.
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Old 07-04-2011, 13:27   #82
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Gee Drifter we are really trying to stir the pot now. Daggerboard/mini keel threads are as much fun as anchoring threads.
I submit! I submit! Of course, they help!

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Old 07-04-2011, 13:53   #83
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

I don't think we have a consensus around that.

On the contrary, I think that most of us think that a mono will point higher than a multi of comparable raciness. An entirely different question is whether it matters. A lot of posts went to the - to my mind trenchant - point that real life upwind performance is usually much worse than what is theoretically possible. Especially in heavy weather (those posts were also relevant).

All of that supports the proposition that theoretically inferior upwind performance is not a good reason not to buy a cat, if the OP likes them. That would have been my advice to him, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Its funny, whether one likes the way it was worded or not, the original post was from a monohull owner who, for reasons related to interior accomodation (bright versus a cave) is considering purchasing a multi. He didn't ask which boat was better to windward in a gale, he didn't ask for comparisons with monohulls on various points of sail - he wanted information concerning the pointing, or tacking angles that he could reasonably expect. How this relates to 'monos are better/safer in a storm' (which is itself a rather questionable proposition), I have no idea. Indeed, I have no idea why monohullers are insisting on posting the performance of their boats, or even comparative race data because that is not what he was asking for (afterall, he himself is a lifelong monohuller).

Whether those extolling the virtues of monohulls at every opportunity are being helpful or not, the very fact that they see the relative performance of monos and multis (on what is the typically the worst point of sail for a multihull), as needing to be debated itself speaks volumes. In any event, what these posts and the responses show is that a well-designed multihull will perform somewhere between reasonably well and very well to windward. Tacking angles will vary, but sailed efficiently, mulithulls are often able to perform as well or better than monos in terms of VMG to windward.

Brad
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Old 07-04-2011, 14:32   #84
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Is it just me or was that an realy bad bit of sailing. In post 45 gunboat overtaking
The gun boat was the giveway vessel and at about 14 seconds into the video the stand on boat had to change course due to fear of collision.
I would be ashamed to sail in such a way as to cause another boat to fear my actions.
off couse if they were racing we all know they are mad so no problem

Alternativley i might need new glasses?
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Old 07-04-2011, 14:39   #85
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by tsmwebb View Post
FWIW, I think A5 sailed downwind at AWA's < 40... I'm not quite sure how to deal with that in the context of the OP's question... I mean if VMG downwind > TWS and AWA < 40 what does that say about "pointing"? Perhaps the original question could be more meaningfully dealt with in terms of efficiency or VMG's?

Tom.
Ney, I think the meaning here is pointing = pointing - how close to the wind the boat will go when going upwind. Efficiency and VMG (both up and down the track) are other things but as you can see above they got involved - by some consciously by others just because we tend to mix things up.

I too think pointing by itself makes little sense as at the end of the day it is the efficiency that counts. Read any interview and one will see that the AC multis were not built for pointing nor for speed but exactly for pointing in specific wind/wave conditions.

b.
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Old 07-04-2011, 15:06   #86
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Straight up?

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Old 07-04-2011, 16:01   #87
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
We have a daggerboard equipped, performance oriented cruising boat.

In the right breeze - around 12 - 14 knots, we do 9 - 9 1/2 knots at 26 degrees apparent, 9 1/2 - 10 1/2 at 30 degrees. We can point up to 20 apparent but speed falls to around 5 knots. All flat water numbers.

.

We usually enjoy the speed and tack through 90-100 though.

.
very impressive 44c. Using your numbers , say 10 knots boatspeed, and 13 knots true wind speed, we can crunch these to get a wind over deck (aws) of just over 20 and a true wind angle of 52 degrees.

So your obviously taking through around 104 degrees plus leeway (say 5 degrees each tack), giving a track of around 114 over the ground in flat water.

Say add another 10 degrees of leeway for rough conditions and it sounds like your track over the bottom is down around 120 to 130 degrees between tacks.

Real world results for our op?.
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Old 07-04-2011, 16:28   #88
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

There is certainly a difference in "pointing", and the actual "track", which considers leeway.

On our 34' Tri... We know we tack through a bit less than 90 degrees, because when we were beating our way across the Gulf of Mexico, I could see our exact track on the computer's "Capt program". It was a long zig zag with all of the angles less than 90 degrees.

What we can "point" seems irrelivent...
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Old 07-04-2011, 16:50   #89
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post

Denial is monohull sailors who think their boats have any advantages over multihulls, apart from being cheap.
Shush now!

You are going to drive up marina prices and crowd some of the best places to anchor!
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Old 07-04-2011, 20:41   #90
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Ney, I think the meaning here is pointing = pointing - how close to the wind the boat will go when going upwind. Efficiency and VMG (both up and down the track) are other things but as you can see above they got involved - by some consciously by others just because we tend to mix things up.

I too think pointing by itself makes little sense as at the end of the day it is the efficiency that counts. Read any interview and one will see that the AC multis were not built for pointing nor for speed but exactly for pointing in specific wind/wave conditions.

b.
Yeah, I don't really follow the "how high can it point" thing. The meaningful question is how quickly can it get upwind. Here for example is a set of polars for the C class cat "Alpha". Notice that in 12 knots true upwind they are sailing at 13.5 knots and tacking through 86 degrees... Therefore their apparent wind angle is about 20 degrees. Those cats are pointing a heck of a lot closer to the apparent wind than any cruising boat of any kind that I know of and that speaks to their efficiency. But the bottom line is the C's are getting directly upwind at nearly 10 knots in a 12 knot breeze. Are there any fixed keel yachts that can do that?

Tom.
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