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Old 06-04-2011, 20:01   #46
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by gbanker View Post
here is an interesting video:.

the catamaran is not pointing quite as close to the wind as the monohull but guess which one would be first around a race course?
seems like the mono is pointing about 20 degrees higher,and thats on flat water,extend that by a 1000 miles and the cat will still be tacking up to the windward mark whilst the guys in the yacht are having a few beers watching the end of the race........
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Old 06-04-2011, 20:12   #47
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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what i dont understand is why it is nessecery to post videos of multi million dollar,light weight,state of the art multis to prove your point that cats can actually go to windward,surely there must be something on utube of a production cat going to windward at say 45 degrees or is this a myth?
It isn't necessary, but it is fun.

FWIW, I typically keep the AWA in the mid to upper 30's and tack through 90-110 over the ground on my cat. We've sailed upwind in ugly conditions much more than I care for and the boat does just fine. We're generally get upwind very well in comparison to the cruising fleet. For sure, a well sailed sport boat will beat us most days and so too an A cat as will many other race boats beside. But, that's true for most any boat that can make ice while underway... Against monos in like service and comparable size we are quite competitive upwind.

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Old 06-04-2011, 20:20   #48
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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seems like the mono is pointing about 20 degrees higher,and thats on flat water,extend that by a 1000 miles and the cat will still be tacking up to the windward mark whilst the guys in the yacht are having a few beers watching the end of the race........
IMO, they're both reaching. But, around a windward/leeward I'd guess the 80 foot racing mono would beat the 60 foot cruising cat... On the other hand in 1988 the 60 foot cat was a heck of a lot faster than the 90 foot on the waterline mono on a windward/leeward upwind and down... Whatever. Cat's can be weatherly if folks are willing to pay the price for it.

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Old 06-04-2011, 20:20   #49
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by tsmwebb View Post
It isn't necessary, but it is fun.

FWIW, I typically keep the AWA in the mid to upper 30's and tack through 90-110 over the ground on my cat. We've sailed upwind in ugly conditions much more than I care for and the boat does just fine. We're generally get upwind very well in comparison to the cruising fleet. For sure, a well sailed sport boat will beat us most days and so too an A cat as will many other race boats beside. But, that's true for most any boat that can make ice while underway... Against monos in like service and comparable size we are quite competitive upwind.

Tom.
thank you; at last a truthful reply from a cat sailor
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Old 06-04-2011, 20:32   #50
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

FFS how relevant is an 80 ft mono to any of us, or even a 63ft tin boat
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Old 06-04-2011, 20:33   #51
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
what i dont understand is why it is nessecery to post videos of multi million dollar,light weight,state of the art multis to prove your point that cats can actually go to windward,surely there must be something on utube of a production cat going to windward at say 45 degrees or is this a myth?

this one goes to windward really well.

If the windmill is connected to the prop then how can he continue to back up when it ain't turnin'?
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Old 06-04-2011, 20:35   #52
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

I saw an engine spittin' exhaust and water..........that's how. He cheated.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the windmill thing. How about if he's going straight downwind at wind speed. Where's the wind?? I've seen the wind turbine models go directly upwind but they were on little skinny wheels with lubricated axles. That probably doesn't make as much drag as the boat and the windage from that huge spinning thing.

Besides, it'll lop the heads off those poor defenseless seagulls in a force 5 blow and get PETA on our butts.. Oh wait....seagulls, heads off......that's a good thing. Right?
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Old 06-04-2011, 20:43   #53
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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I saw an engine spittin' exhaust and water..........that's how. He cheated.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the windmill thing. How about if he's going straight downwind at wind speed. Where's the wind?? I've seen the wind turbine models go directly upwind but they were on little skinny wheels with lubricated axles. That probably doesn't make as much drag as the boat and the windage from that huge spinning thing.

Besides, it'll lop the heads off those poor defenseless seagulls in a force 5 blow. Oh wait....that's a good thing.
Warning: thinking about this problem is know by the State of California to cause dangerous brain pain.



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Old 06-04-2011, 21:10   #54
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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thank you; at last a truthful reply from a cat sailor

If the truth is what you are after try checking out the race tracker for the recently run Caribbean 600. It shows the gunboat 66 track and it appears to be making just over 90 between tacks. This is from a high tech fully powered up multi with full professional crew.

So one can expect all other cruising cats to be worse than this benchmark.
We set the autopilot auto tack to 100 and adjust up or down from there depending on the sea state , amount of wind and comfort required.The rougher it is the lower and slower the final track is.

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Old 06-04-2011, 21:38   #55
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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denile is not a river in egypt,face it guys cats going to weather in any thing above 30 knots in the open sea is very stressfull,not only to the skipper.

performance or not catamarans were not designed to be able to withstand what a mono can going to weather in all conditions.
So you're an expert in the structural design of catamarans?

I know quite a few monohull sailors who would much prefer to avoid sailing to windward in above 30 knots.

I HAD a mono, now I have a cat. I'd prefer to be in the cat in ANY conditions, sailing in ANY direction.

I've sailed to windward in 30 - 35 knots in both, and only one of them suffered (minor) damage (the timber walkway on the bowsprit broke) - it wasn't the cat.

Denial is monohull sailors who think their boats have any advantages over multihulls, apart from being cheap.
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Old 06-04-2011, 21:42   #56
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by catty View Post
If the truth is what you are after try checking out the race tracker for the recently run Caribbean 600. It shows the gunboat 66 track and it appears to be making just over 90 between tacks. This is from a high tech fully powered up multi with full professional crew.

So one can expect all other cruising cats to be worse than this benchmark.
We set the autopilot auto tack to 100 and adjust up or down from there depending on the sea state , amount of wind and comfort required.The rougher it is the lower and slower the final track is.

Regards
You would expect the gunboat to have been sailed to make it's best VMG. This isn't neccessarily as high as it can point.
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Old 06-04-2011, 21:46   #57
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by atoll View Post
seems like the mono is pointing about 20 degrees higher,and thats on flat water,extend that by a 1000 miles and the cat will still be tacking up to the windward mark whilst the guys in the yacht are having a few beers watching the end of the race........

Both boats are reaching. Seems to me some people really don't know much about sailing...
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Old 06-04-2011, 22:16   #58
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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If the truth is what you are after try checking out the race tracker for the recently run Caribbean 600...
Excellent! But bringing facts into a discussion is a thread-ending bummer

Note to the tacking angle braggards: post your actual polars or remain quiet.

Also, have you noticed how the performance multi's are races as monohulls? Only one hull in the water whenever possible. Try that in you condomaran. The other hulls are only so much ballast...Except that other hull is handy to have for the other tack.
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Old 06-04-2011, 22:35   #59
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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I think that this is one subject where it is very hard to gather truly comparable numbers. Like the size of fish people catch, this is a subject which seems to induce not just lying, but involuntary self-deception.
Why is it that people who have probably never been on an Endeavourcat, let alone being on mine violate the forum "be nice" rule by calling me a liar or implying I'm crazy (and note that this time it was done by a moderator). Next time I'm out for a little impromptu race against one of the local monohullers and showing them my stern as I cross their bow, out pointing and outspeeding them, I'll take my video camera along and send you guys some documentation. I'll be happy to include pictures of my chartplotter showing a 100 degree true tack. Maybe I'll even video a short testimonial by the skippers of the monohulls that were shocked at the results. This should satisfy some of the others who are complaining that all of the videos were of racing cats. I might even throw in a demonstration of how to tack a boat going to windward at 1.5 knots in 2.5 knots of apparent wind by just turning the wheel.

My guess is that even if I did all this that some bozo would accuse me of faking the video.
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Old 06-04-2011, 22:51   #60
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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You would expect the gunboat to have been sailed to make it's best VMG. This isn't neccessarily as high as it can point.
yes 44c, if we take the op question literally the answer would be head to wind with the motor running or 30 degrees with most of the sail area backed and the boat going sideways, but hey I was just trying to make sense of a poorly worded question.
But what would be the point?


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