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Old 06-04-2011, 05:02   #16
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

How high will he point?? Hell, most days I can't even get him to look out the window, much less point at anything


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Old 06-04-2011, 06:30   #17
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Not again....!

I figure talk about sailboat performance is like a whispering contest; what compromises are you planning to make? There are monohulls and cats that barely sail anywere; we all enjoy passing them, up wind and down. They tend to be really nice at anchor, though. There are windward machines (AC boats, mono and multi) that really go upwind. Camping at best. Everything else is somewhere in between.

Silly.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:02   #18
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Thanks Doug - nice to see some levity in a thread that has been turned sour by a couple of rabidly biased monohullers. For example: How high will a cat point? "Not high enough!" Gee, that was helpful and enlightening. Or the monohuller who says that while he has no experience in multihulls, they always seem to have a great deal of leeway and then, in a moment of open-mindedness, says that he couldn't wait to hear "what the zealots" have to say! It sort of begs the question: who is the 'zealot'?

This thread started out as a legitimate, unbiased question - a request for some information that may be of interest to others; it has, in a few posts, been turned by a couple of monohullers into an opportunity to insult all multihulls and their owners. I fully understand that some people have strong opinions (and strong biases), but this was a pretty specific question that was capable of (and in fact received) a pretty simple answer. To the chagrin of the minority of monohullers on this site who love to bash mulits at every turn, the questons have been answered affirmatively, and perhaps we can now shut down this thread.

Cheers!

Brad
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:12   #19
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Brad, by all means, shut it down. Lets start a new one:

"Do monohull sailboats roll more than cats?"

or

"does it take twice as long to paint the bottom of a catamaran?"

or

"Should I carry two spare rudders on my cat?"

... add your own!
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:17   #20
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

90 degs I think easily. A well designed cat points higher than most monos, in any case (?). It also sails twice as fast.

I have sailed Catanas with daggerboards. I do not know if a Catana qualifies as a well designed cat, probably not, it is just a cruising clunker, but even so we tacked within 90 easily.

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Old 06-04-2011, 07:18   #21
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

No, please don't shut it down. I'm a monohull owner who is seriously considering a cat. The huge advantage of a cat for me (and for the admiral) is having the primary living space above the water rather than in a cave. But I'd like a realistic assessment of this particular tradeoff-- if it is a tradeoff. I'd also like to know how much daggerboards improve pointing ability as against a well designed cat with keels. Daggerboards create just one more system to maintain, even if you just leave them down 90% of the time.
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:33   #22
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
No, please don't shut it down. I'm a monohull owner who is seriously considering a cat. The huge advantage of a cat for me (and for the admiral) is having the primary living space above the water rather than in a cave. But I'd like a realistic assessment of this particular tradeoff-- if it is a tradeoff. I'd also like to know how much daggerboards improve pointing ability as against a well designed cat with keels. Daggerboards create just one more system to maintain, even if you just leave them down 90% of the time.
Latest multihull minikeel designs are coming darn close to daggerboards. Daggerboards do add a level of complexity, decrease interior volume, and in some cases make it hard to protect the rest of the appendages (saildrives/rudders).

I have talked to two people that have built boats with daggerboards recently, and in both cases, they said that if the were to do it again, they would go fixed keels. In both cases they were racers/go fast types. Felt that the benefits for cruising just were not there.

Biggest benefit for daggerboards now is shallow draft.

Performance more than anything on a multihull is tied to weight. Keep her light and you will be happy, upwind, downwind, no wind.

In relation to the OPs question I do not think it is fair to include trimarans/foilers in this discussion since the dynamics/capabilities are different than a cat. I love it when a roll above a monohull, hard on the wind after they have told me that multihulls don't point.

Cheers,
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:45   #23
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
... A well designed cat points higher than most monos, in any case (?)...
Can you (or anyone) explain why that would (or would not) be?
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:51   #24
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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While generally not considered a high performance cat, my Endeavourcat can tack through 100 degrees true with no loss of speed, I can go to about 80 degrees true at the sacrifice of about half the speed. The apparent angles are much closer than that as I'm loosing about 10 degrees to leeway. That is I'm pointed near 40 apparent but making 50 true. This is a condomaran with stub keels, not a dagger board cat. These numbers are for sheltered waters with no more than a 2 ft chop and the sails have to be trimmed properly. I don't know who told you cats can't point but I've shown several cruising monohulls, who questioned my boats pointing ability, my stern as I crossed their bows going to windward in my condo. I would hate to see what a performance cat would do to their egos.
I think that this is one subject where it is very hard to gather truly comparable numbers. Like the size of fish people catch, this is a subject which seems to induce not just lying, but involuntary self-deception.

My boat is supposed to be a fairly high performance monohull with a modern underbody with bulb keel, a draft of almost 8 feet, and a tall rig. I can pinch up to 32 degrees apparent in perfect conditions and tack through something around 80 degrees true, but this is with telltales flopping and stupid VMG's to windward. Thus entirely meaningless. To make good speed and to be able to leave the boat on autopilot (in wind-following mode) without constant sail trimming, I need about 38 degrees apparent which gives me a tack of a little more than 90 degrees true. And that's in perfect conditions with 18 knots of wind and flat seas and meticulously trimmed sails. More often I'm at 40 to 42 degrees and tack through more like 100 degrees on the GPS. This may be less than perfect conditions or may even be that I'm just too lazy to trim the sails to the nth degree.

Maybe I'm not as masterful a sail trimmer as many but the boat is a better performer than most cruising boats, so I doubt that a lot of people point a lot higher than that in real life. I sail in the race boat - infested Solent (at least, I sail out of it) and frequently tack down the Solent with hot race boats. Depite the klutz trimming the sails on my boat (me), I am practically never passed (my waterline length helps there) and very, very rarely outpointed by much, so I think my tacking angles must not be so terrible. But they are more than 90 degrees except in exceptional circumstances and so a lot more than many people claim.

Cats inherently can't point as high because they inherently make more leeway. Without keels and the hydrodynamic lift produced by a good keel, it simply cannot be otherwise. The difference is less with a very light well dagger-boarded cat, but the difference is there. So if Captain Bill achieves the kinds of numbers he says then he is a vastly better sail trimmer than I am.

That being said, I did spend a couple of weeks on a cruising cat in the Windward Islands a few years ago. I expected much more speed than the monohulls I was used to, and much less pointing ability. I was wrong on both counts. The speed was not much if any greater than monohulls of comparable waterline length, and the pointing ability was about equally dismal compared to most of the monohulls I had been chartering up to that time -- that is, a realistic 110 degrees on the GPS even when trying fairly hard, but not pinching. That is because to do much better than that, even on an excellently designed monohull, you need really good condition sails which are not baggy or blown-out, and well-tuned rigging with no forestay sag. And you need to work hard. In a charter boat, whether mono or cat, that's usually not realistic, so you're happy with your 110 degrees. What that means is that the theoretical advantage of good monohulls is easily and quickly lost if you don't have perfect sails and rigging -- yet another gap between theory and practice.

And one more thing, to the OP:

I never met a catamaran owner who lamented his boat's pointing ability, and never heard of one. What cruiser, in fact, likes to sail uphill at all? How often does any of us really make a passage tacking upwind rather than just putting the engine on? So how important is it in real life?

I think the boat and crew and circumstances are fairly rare where you will be willing to spend a lot of time hard on the wind, for extended periods of time. I crossed the English Channel last November hard on the wind (in what turned out to be a gale during the last part of the passage), and I would not choose to repeat that experience if I had a realistic choice, even though my boat is supposed to be very weatherly compared to other cruising boats. The first year I owned my boat I never motored anywhere just on principle; lately if I would like to be in such and such a port by dinner time, and that port turns out to be upwind, I tend to just put on the motor rather than change my passage plan to give me time to tack there. I suspect that most cruisers -- maybe nearly all of them -- do the same.

So if you like catamarans, buy one, and forget about whether it may or may not point quite as well, which may or may not be true to a noticeable degree.
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Old 06-04-2011, 08:05   #25
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

An F28 or Stiletto is about 5 degree below a typical racer cruiser mono of the same size. A Lagoon 41 or similar is about 20~30 degree below a similar sized racer/cruiser mono.

My observations over 200 to 300 races in mixed fleets.... Not sure how high you can point? Enter a race and see how you stack up.
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Old 06-04-2011, 08:08   #26
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Our Searunner Tri., with its huge 7' draft C-B, tacks through 90%. (This is "made good", not just pointing angles). It easily outpoints keel cats, but is not as tight as the best daggerboard cats. (performance boats)

Still, we prefer our design, because if our centerboard hits the bottom or debris, the small fuse line holding it down pops, and it kicks up into the cushioned trunk. This has happened twice, with no damage.

Our friend with a huge daggerboard cat, broke a board several times on impact. It was a VERY expensive repair.

If cats are your preference, and "cruising" VS "racing" the point, I would choose one of the better keel cats over the daggerboard models, for the above reason... (one with a proportionately small cabin, excellent wing clearence, and visibility forward.)

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Old 06-04-2011, 08:12   #27
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

Quote:
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I think the boat and crew and circumstances are fairly rare where you will be willing to spend a lot of time hard on the wind
Funny, this damn thing always seems to point at my destination.

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Old 06-04-2011, 08:17   #28
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

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Funny, this damn thing always seems to point at my destination.

LOL! Ain't it the truth! And that's why we have diesel engines in our boats
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Old 06-04-2011, 08:22   #29
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

I don't know... perhaps it's the Bermida triangle or something, but we go to windward from A to B, then turn around, and the sail back is ALSO to windward! Go figure.

Over the last 15 years, we so seldom sail a passage "off the wind", that I remember each one. I think that crossing oceans with the trade winds would be totally different story...

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Old 06-04-2011, 08:23   #30
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Re: So How High Will a Cat Point?

LOL That made my day. Thanks
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