SMG 50, its Like they were Reading my Mind

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Agility

Having done all three and now owning my second Chris White forward cockpit all I can say is that I bet BigBeakie has never owned one or he wouldn't be so misinformed.

Yes that is true, I have not owned a forward cockpit cat, nor would I. I have, however, also been in all 3 of the conditions mentioned and the value of a fully protected helm position is quite obvious, to me anyway.

For sail handling, I think they are great. For sheltering and protecting the helms person, not so much.

Have you had to hand steer fore reaching through a storm for a couple of days in 6 to 8 meter breaking seas? And no, the AP did not cope with those conditions.

Thinking about doing that again up in a forward exposed cockpit helm is not something I even want to contemplate, nevermind actually have to do.

Just a different perspective....

[UpOnStands]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Thanks Agility for the insight.

So both rigs self destructed through "flutter"?

Regards

judging from the photos of the repairs performed on the first 2, it appears that the top stayed bearing (pins the top of the mast which then rotates underneath) was laid up with too much longitudinal uni carbon tow and insufficient circumferential restraint.
the fix is fairly simple.

[Agility]

"Have you had to hand steer fore reaching through a storm for a couple of days in 6 to 8 meter breaking seas? And no, the AP did not cope with those conditions. "

Yes I have.


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[44'cruisingcat]

It would seem to me that a forward cockpit on a cat would be no worse protected than the cockpit on an average production monohull, yet no-one seems to find any great issue with these.


IMO the real reason forward cockpit cat's are relatively rare is due to the amount of saloon/galley space you'd lose.

[UpOnStands]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

It would seem to me that a forward cockpit on a cat would be no worse protected than the cockpit on an average production monohull, yet no-one seems to find any great issue with these.
IMO the real reason forward cockpit cat's are relatively rare is due to the amount of saloon/galley space you'd lose.

indeed, most cockpits on monohulls are real close to the waterline where as the Chris White fwd cockpit is way above the waterline.

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

It would seem to me that a forward cockpit on a cat would be no worse protected than the cockpit on an average production monohull, yet no-one seems to find any great issue with these.

That's true but you won't find a cruising mono without a dodger and bimini. In discussions with Chris he did not have any solution for a dodger in his cockpits and indeed you rarely see any such protection on his cats. That is one reason I found the fwd cockpit on the SMG 50 interesting. At least it has a little screen there.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

That's true but you won't find a cruising mono without a dodger and bimini. In discussions with Chris he did not have any solution for a dodger in his cockpits and indeed you rarely see any such protection on his cats. That is one reason I found the fwd cockpit on the SMG 50 interesting. At least it has a little screen there.

The helm is usually quite a long way aft of the dodger, and wouldn't get much protection from it.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Anyone who has spent time at an exposed helm in (A) cold driving rain, (B) baking heat and sun, or (C) rough breaking seas over the boat, can answer your question.

That's where the Chris white designs beat the others. In those conditions you steer from the inside helm in your slippers.


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[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The helm is usually quite a long way aft of the dodger, and wouldn't get much protection from it.

I usually agree with what you write, but having had a mono before this cat and seen its dodger deflect green water many times, I can't agree with this one.

[barnakiel]

Historically, the helmsman was tied to where the rudder was. So the helm station was, for many boats, in the aft portion of the boat.

Today, with more freedom to the designers, the helm station can be anywhere and so it should be where the helmsman gets best visibility / protection / comfort / etc.

This will vary with what the design is proposed to do: different for a river ferry, lake day trip cat and offshore cold waters cruiser.

This much said, given than most mid and big boats are driven by their APs, the helmsman can be anywhere. Just hang that wireless remote round your neck.

Ready set go. No need to sit where it is wet and cold getting boils on your bottom.

Cheers,
b.

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I'm on the fence on the A frame idea. I would think that if they were all that great then all the racers would be using them. Instead most of these fast boats are using a traditional rig. Was there one A frame in the Gladstone race? What am I not getting?
And, I wonder if an Outremer 50 would smoke the (front) doors off the SMG?

In 1972 my father Alan Slater designed and built his first catamaran . He did as much research as possible and as an engineer he was not afraid to think outside the box . This 30 foot family light cruising Cat. It features a double Bi pole rig ,he always called it A frame as the masts looked like a capital A . It had two frames both with the bases at the same place ,From the side it looked like a V. the taller frame leaned forward and the shorter leaned aft in sort of a Ketch arrangement .

The sail plan was a such,(all sails furling) forward a jib,a mizzen jib and in the middle of that V an upside down jib with a sprit to control the clue which we called the top sail.
THE advantage of the double frame was that you could get the same amount of sail up but with a lower overall height due to the topsail ,and not having masts the efficiency of the sails was increased . Windage is a valid point but for the most part the boat out performed the cruisers of the day
The masts were mild steel tubes hot dipped galvanized with hand spliced standing rigging . The tall frame was about 32 feet long .
This was our Family boat until about 1988 .

It was a dream to sail All the controls for furling where at the bottom of the V .You could go from full sail to nothing in 30 seconds ,we timed it once . She was called" Pandemonium" and to the untrained eye she looked bit like that. When I was young I took her to the Bahamas and back and the rig performed very well .
I seriously considered this rig when having our PDQ 36 built but the structure of the boat was not in the right place to accept the rig .

I would have no issues with owning a properly designed A frame rigged boat.
Hell if the Harkens did why not any one else
I have looked for her on the web but no luck . It was sold to a family in Flint Mich.If any one has news of Pandemonium let me know .last known colour was yellow.
David
PS I am not at home so I don't have pictures

[Agility]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

In discussions with Chris he did not have any solution for a dodger in his cockpits and indeed you rarely see any such protection on his cats. That is one reason I found the fwd cockpit on the SMG 50 interesting. At least it has a little screen there.

We have a Bimini over the helm.


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[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

I usually agree with what you write, but having had a mono before this cat and seen its dodger deflect green water many times, I can't agree with this one.

I had a mono too, with a hard (steel) dodger, and I copped plenty of water while at the helm.

Also we were discussing fore reaching in 6 to 8 metre breaking seas were we not? The dodger wouldn't even be between you and the waves in these conditions.

[UpOnStands]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

It features a double Bi pole rig ,he always called it A frame as the masts looked like a capital A . It had two frames both with the bases at the same place ,From the side it looked like a V. the taller frame leaned forward and the shorter leaned aft in sort of a Ketch arrangement .
PS I am not at home so I don't have pictures

something in CF? aft is to the right
the legs swing around the horizontal top member to make installation easier
the whole assembly could pivot forward if bridges were a problem

[admiralslater]

Up on stands, that's an interesting design, but I don't see reasoning behind the curved portion and what it's purpose is.
One of the reasons behind the double A was to get the mastheads in the correct fore and aft position while keeping everything straight and in column