SMG 50, its Like they were Reading my Mind

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I'm on the fence on the A frame idea . I would think that if they were all that great then all the racers would be using them. Instead most of these fast boats are using a traditional rig. Was there one A frame in the Gladstone race? What am I not getting?

Just getting around to reading thru this subject thread, and thought I would make some postings as I read thru it.

I have another gentleman who is interested in an a-frame rig. So I went back thru this rather long and very interesting subject thread titled Wishbone Sailing Rig. I made some notes of those postings I found most interesting, and put them in a word document. I will attach that document to this posting.

BTW I did not find that straight-legged A-frame rig on the SGM50 that appealing looking compared to the more elegant arched rig on ORCA or that new Greenpeace vessel, or Harken's Procyon.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by FSMike

deckofficer -
You and everybody else interested in creative thinking should visit chriswhitedesigns.com and check out the new Atlantic 47 cat. A new type of sail rig that looks really interesting, and adjustable trailing flaps on the keels to improve windward ability. Chris White pretty much invented the forward cockpit with his cats, and nobody ever accused his boats of being slow.
Now where did I put that lottery ticket.

Agreed, Chris is a very inventive guy. But I have never been a fan of those fwd cockpits, particularly when they are at the expense of a nice big aft deck. And they really screw up some of the accommodations below. Look how cramped the dbl berth 'staterooms' appear, and getting to them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27puz2-OsE8

[barnakiel]

I like it.

I think it looks like a great boat for weekends and short escapades in places like Queensland or Caribbean.

b.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by smj

I'm with Bob on this one. If the a frame mast is really the cats ass I think there would be more use of it. It's not a new design and not popular, there has to be a reason for this.

I don't think we have really seen that much experimentation with these rigs to pronounce their death just yet

And certainly we are NOT going to see any experimentation within the conventional racing circles due to all the handicap rules.

BTW have some of you seen this rather interesting study,...A-frame mast, double headsails, no mainsail
Wind tunnel and CFD investigation of unconventional rigs

[beiland]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

smj, I wouldn't suggest that the A-frame mast is the cat's ass, but it strikes me as an interesting concept for a short-handed cruising cat. As I see it, the disadvantages:

1. Cost. Likely more expensive initially as most manufacturers can purchase spars virtually 'out of the box' from manufacturers such as Selden, etc.
2. Increased windage underway.
3. Lack of a boom will have a detrimental effect on sail shape.

Advantages:

1. Rig requires virtually no tuning.
2. Mounts mast on the most solid part of a cat, as opposed to the weakest (wide bridgedeck). This may enable a lighter structure in the bridgedeck.
3. A-frame mast should be stronger laterally and no weaker longitudinally.
4. Improves forward visibility, especially for bulkhead mounted steering stations.
5. Likely less windage under anchor - i.e., no large sail cover/boom bag.
6. Does not require a power winch to raise the main.
7.Twin boomless, furling sails should be incredibly easy to set, douse and reef. Futhermore, eliminates the need for and clutter caused by lazy jacks. sail cover, topping lift, etc.
8. Likely less maintenance costs as less standing rigging to need replacement and no need to replace a boom bag, lazy jacks, topping lift, etc.

Personally, I'd be surprised if it performs as well to windward as a more traditional rig. However, as a cruising rig it does seem to have some serious advantages on a cat and, if the performance defecit wasn't too large.... Anyway, it would be wonderful to sail one to see how it performs in real world conditions, but I can't imagine a more simple rig for short-handed sailing.

Brad

I would agree with most of your points, but I might question why you think, "Lack of a boom will have a detrimental effect on sail shape" ?
I find a loose footed main to have a superior shape to the old style fixed footed designs. And it you can get proper sheeting angles the totally boomless main can be quite good.

Or how about a wishbone shaped boom?

[FSMike]

Originally Posted by beiland

Agreed, Chris is a very inventive guy. But I have never been a fan of those fwd cockpits, particularly when they are at the expense of a nice big aft deck. And they really screw up some of the accommodations below. Look how cramped the dbl berth 'staterooms' appear, and getting to them.

"Look how cramped ----"
But the pix are of the SMG 50, not Chris White's A47.
Which, I might add, has a nice "back porch" lol, as well as a few interesting interior arrangements.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

As a single-hander my interest is always piqued when there is an innovation that works well for short handed sailing. I'm willing to give up some performance on certain points of sail to be able to douse (shorten sail) quickly. I've never sailed a cat (but have sailed a tri F28), all my off shore experience is in a Cal 40. I think without cat experience I feel more comfortable in a mono for the reason of self de-powering, as heel helps dump the energy of gusts. Anything that can help my head wrap around a cat will relax my anxiety about passage making in a cat. You good folks that are out cruising your cats, please chime in and tell me, short handed you love your cat because ........ (fill in all pluses).

Do you know of this unusual catamaran design, with an A-frame rig?
DAMSL — Catbird Suite

and/or google "Catbird Suite catamaran"

The owner of that veesel has since sold the boat, but for some significant time made lots of interesting postings to that Wishbone Sailing Rig discussion I mentioned previously.


Ah Ha, I see the owner of CatBird Suite has visited this discussion, just found it
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1556118

[beiland]

Originally Posted by FSMike

"Look how cramped ----"
But the pix are of the SMG 50, not Chris White's A47.
Which, I might add, has a nice "back porch" lol, as well as a few interesting interior arrangements.

Sorry for the confusion. I should have been more specific about distinguishing between the two vessels.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by ArtM

Here are my thoughts on this design (comparing to the Lagoon, the only boat in this class I've seen in person):

1) The center cockpit is beautiful, and gives a great view forward with the ability to socialize with the guests, but appears to lack visibility to the rear corners of the boat. Never having sailed such a boat, I don't know if this is really a huge disadvantage.

Yes it is a real disadvantage when docking.

Originally Posted by ArtM

2) The salon seems somewhat small compared to the Lagoon, being sandwiched between the cockpit and the rear swim deck. The utility of that rear deck seem less than the Lagoon as well, which does triple duty as a cockpit, swim deck, and dining area

Not only is this saloon small, the visibility from it is small. Get on a Gunboat cat and see the difference!
And there is practically no rear deck

Originally Posted by ArtM

3) I love the galley-up design of lagoons, keeping everyone on the same level, but then WOW what a galley this boat has. It recovers the lost salon at the apparant expense of some cabin and head space - not entirely sure if that is accurate. It looks like the owners version of this might have a truly expansive main cabin, though, which might be really spectacular compared to the utilitarian style of the Lagoons.

Lots of pros and cons on galley-up or galley-down. One thing that really bothered me was the small size of refrig and freezer, and the fact that they were on two different sides of the boat

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl

Okay, so this might be a stupid question but I've been wondering why more boats don't have the helm closer to the front of the boat... I see on this one they have put the cockpit/ helm in front of the salon but there must be some reason more builders don't do this? I don't want to hijack this thread or anything, this is just the first boat I've seen with such a configuration. And it is a lovely boat!

Anyone who has spent time at an exposed helm in (A) cold driving rain, (B) baking heat and sun, or (C) rough breaking seas over the boat, can answer your question.

[Agility]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Anyone who has spent time at an exposed helm in (A) cold driving rain, (B) baking heat and sun, or (C) rough breaking seas over the boat, can answer your question.

Having done all three and now owning my second Chris White forward cockpit all I can say is that I bet BigBeakie has never owned one or he wouldn't be so misinformed.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by Agility

Having done all three and now owning my second Chris White forward cockpit all I can say is that I bet BigBeakie has never owned one or he wouldn't be so misinformed.

Care to share how your mastfoil thingy is performing. Was it Escape and Pounce that had strife with their Mastfoils. Dismastings etc. Care to set the record straight? I'm sure many are interested.

[Agility]

They made a modification to the leading edge by adding weight. I think this solved the flutter problem. I've had no issues in 50 knots of winds. Time will tell.

Performance wise, I think the foils provide a little less power than a traditional rig but the trade off for such easy sail handling and reefing is well worth it in my opinion.


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[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by Agility

They made a modification to the leading edge by adding weight. I think this solved the flutter problem. I've had no issues in 50 knots of winds. Time will tell.

Performance wise, I think the foils provide a little less power than a traditional rig but the trade off for such easy sail handling and reefing is well worth it in my opinion.


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Thanks Agility for the insight.

So both rigs self destructed through "flutter"?

Is there any other system on the trailing edges to deal with this eventuality , or was adding weight in some sort of counterbalance arrangement to the leading edge the only control measure for flutter?

Regards

[Agility]

I don't know the details of the other rigs but many mods have been made since the first foils were produced. The new ones are stronger, Kevlar shrouds and no flaps. Alwoplast has been great at supporting owners from what I can tell.


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