Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-10-2016, 07:15   #91
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,029
A-frame Rig, Wishbone Mast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
I'm on the fence on the A frame idea . I would think that if they were all that great then all the racers would be using them. Instead most of these fast boats are using a traditional rig. Was there one A frame in the Gladstone race? What am I not getting?
Just getting around to reading thru this subject thread, and thought I would make some postings as I read thru it.

I have another gentleman who is interested in an a-frame rig. So I went back thru this rather long and very interesting subject thread titled Wishbone Sailing Rig. I made some notes of those postings I found most interesting, and put them in a word document. I will attach that document to this posting.

BTW I did not find that straight-legged A-frame rig on the SGM50 that appealing looking compared to the more elegant arched rig on ORCA or that new Greenpeace vessel, or Harken's Procyon.


Attached Files
File Type: doc Wishbone Mast Rig postings.doc (54.5 KB, 12 views)
__________________

__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2016, 07:44   #92
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,029
Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
deckofficer -
You and everybody else interested in creative thinking should visit chriswhitedesigns.com and check out the new Atlantic 47 cat. A new type of sail rig that looks really interesting, and adjustable trailing flaps on the keels to improve windward ability. Chris White pretty much invented the forward cockpit with his cats, and nobody ever accused his boats of being slow.
Now where did I put that lottery ticket.
Agreed, Chris is a very inventive guy. But I have never been a fan of those fwd cockpits, particularly when they are at the expense of a nice big aft deck. And they really screw up some of the accommodations below. Look how cramped the dbl berth 'staterooms' appear, and getting to them.
__________________

__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2016, 07:57   #93
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 15,335
Re: SMG 50, its Like they were Reading my Mind

I like it.

I think it looks like a great boat for weekends and short escapades in places like Queensland or Caribbean.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2016, 08:06   #94
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,029
Wind tunnel and CFD investigation of unconventional A-frame rigs

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
I'm with Bob on this one. If the a frame mast is really the cats ass I think there would be more use of it. It's not a new design and not popular, there has to be a reason for this.
I don't think we have really seen that much experimentation with these rigs to pronounce their death just yet

And certainly we are NOT going to see any experimentation within the conventional racing circles due to all the handicap rules.

BTW have some of you seen this rather interesting study,...A-frame mast, double headsails, no mainsail
Wind tunnel and CFD investigation of unconventional rigs
__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2016, 08:14   #95
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,029
Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
smj, I wouldn't suggest that the A-frame mast is the cat's ass, but it strikes me as an interesting concept for a short-handed cruising cat. As I see it, the disadvantages:

1. Cost. Likely more expensive initially as most manufacturers can purchase spars virtually 'out of the box' from manufacturers such as Selden, etc.
2. Increased windage underway.
3. Lack of a boom will have a detrimental effect on sail shape.

Advantages:

1. Rig requires virtually no tuning.
2. Mounts mast on the most solid part of a cat, as opposed to the weakest (wide bridgedeck). This may enable a lighter structure in the bridgedeck.
3. A-frame mast should be stronger laterally and no weaker longitudinally.
4. Improves forward visibility, especially for bulkhead mounted steering stations.
5. Likely less windage under anchor - i.e., no large sail cover/boom bag.
6. Does not require a power winch to raise the main.
7.Twin boomless, furling sails should be incredibly easy to set, douse and reef. Futhermore, eliminates the need for and clutter caused by lazy jacks. sail cover, topping lift, etc.
8. Likely less maintenance costs as less standing rigging to need replacement and no need to replace a boom bag, lazy jacks, topping lift, etc.

Personally, I'd be surprised if it performs as well to windward as a more traditional rig. However, as a cruising rig it does seem to have some serious advantages on a cat and, if the performance defecit wasn't too large.... Anyway, it would be wonderful to sail one to see how it performs in real world conditions, but I can't imagine a more simple rig for short-handed sailing.

Brad
I would agree with most of your points, but I might question why you think, "Lack of a boom will have a detrimental effect on sail shape" ?
I find a loose footed main to have a superior shape to the old style fixed footed designs. And it you can get proper sheeting angles the totally boomless main can be quite good.

Or how about a wishbone shaped boom?
__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2016, 08:38   #96
Senior Cruiser
 
FSMike's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bahamas/Florida
Boat: Solaris Sunstar 36' catamaran
Posts: 2,616
Images: 5
Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland View Post
Agreed, Chris is a very inventive guy. But I have never been a fan of those fwd cockpits, particularly when they are at the expense of a nice big aft deck. And they really screw up some of the accommodations below. Look how cramped the dbl berth 'staterooms' appear, and getting to them.
"Look how cramped ----"
But the pix are of the SMG 50, not Chris White's A47.
Which, I might add, has a nice "back porch" lol, as well as a few interesting interior arrangements.
__________________
Sail Fast Live Slow
FSMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2016, 08:48   #97
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,029
Cruising A-frame Rig, Catbird Suite

Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
As a single-hander my interest is always piqued when there is an innovation that works well for short handed sailing. I'm willing to give up some performance on certain points of sail to be able to douse (shorten sail) quickly. I've never sailed a cat (but have sailed a tri F28), all my off shore experience is in a Cal 40. I think without cat experience I feel more comfortable in a mono for the reason of self de-powering, as heel helps dump the energy of gusts. Anything that can help my head wrap around a cat will relax my anxiety about passage making in a cat. You good folks that are out cruising your cats, please chime in and tell me, short handed you love your cat because ........ (fill in all pluses).
Do you know of this unusual catamaran design, with an A-frame rig?
DAMSL — Catbird Suite

and/or google "Catbird Suite catamaran"

The owner of that veesel has since sold the boat, but for some significant time made lots of interesting postings to that Wishbone Sailing Rig discussion I mentioned previously.


Ah Ha, I see the owner of CatBird Suite has visited this discussion, just found it
SMG 50, its Like they were Reading my Mind
__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2016, 08:51   #98
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,029
Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
"Look how cramped ----"
But the pix are of the SMG 50, not Chris White's A47.
Which, I might add, has a nice "back porch" lol, as well as a few interesting interior arrangements.
Sorry for the confusion. I should have been more specific about distinguishing between the two vessels.
__________________
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2016, 09:01   #99
Marine Service Provider
 
beiland's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: St Augustine, FL, Thailand
Boat: 65 Sailing/Fishing catamaran
Posts: 1,029
Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
Here are my thoughts on this design (comparing to the Lagoon, the only boat in this class I've seen in person):

1) The center cockpit is beautiful, and gives a great view forward with the ability to socialize with the guests, but appears to lack visibility to the rear corners of the boat. Never having sailed such a boat, I don't know if this is really a huge disadvantage.
Yes it is a real disadvantage when docking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
2) The salon seems somewhat small compared to the Lagoon, being sandwiched between the cockpit and the rear swim deck. The utility of that rear deck seem less than the Lagoon as well, which does triple duty as a cockpit, swim deck, and dining area
Not only is this saloon small, the visibility from it is small. Get on a Gunboat cat and see the difference!
And there is practically no rear deck

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
3) I love the galley-up design of lagoons, keeping everyone on the same level, but then WOW what a galley this boat has. It recovers the lost salon at the apparant expense of some cabin and head space - not entirely sure if that is accurate. It looks like the owners version of this might have a truly expansive main cabin, though, which might be really spectacular compared to the utilitarian style of the Lagoons.
Lots of pros and cons on galley-up or galley-down. One thing that really bothered me was the small size of refrig and freezer, and the fact that they were on two different sides of the boat
__________________
Brian Eiland
distinctive exploration yachts
beiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 00:34   #100
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Posts: 501
Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
Okay, so this might be a stupid question but I've been wondering why more boats don't have the helm closer to the front of the boat... I see on this one they have put the cockpit/ helm in front of the salon but there must be some reason more builders don't do this? I don't want to hijack this thread or anything, this is just the first boat I've seen with such a configuration. And it is a lovely boat!
Anyone who has spent time at an exposed helm in (A) cold driving rain, (B) baking heat and sun, or (C) rough breaking seas over the boat, can answer your question.
__________________
BigBeakie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 01:11   #101
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 297
Images: 6
Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Anyone who has spent time at an exposed helm in (A) cold driving rain, (B) baking heat and sun, or (C) rough breaking seas over the boat, can answer your question.
Having done all three and now owning my second Chris White forward cockpit all I can say is that I bet BigBeakie has never owned one or he wouldn't be so misinformed.
__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 03:02   #102
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 306
Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agility View Post
Having done all three and now owning my second Chris White forward cockpit all I can say is that I bet BigBeakie has never owned one or he wouldn't be so misinformed.

Care to share how your mastfoil thingy is performing. Was it Escape and Pounce that had strife with their Mastfoils. Dismastings etc. Care to set the record straight? I'm sure many are interested.
__________________
Seaslug Caravan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 03:42   #103
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 297
Images: 6
SMG 50, its Like they were Reading my Mind

They made a modification to the leading edge by adding weight. I think this solved the flutter problem. I've had no issues in 50 knots of winds. Time will tell.

Performance wise, I think the foils provide a little less power than a traditional rig but the trade off for such easy sail handling and reefing is well worth it in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 04:16   #104
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 306
Re: SMG 50, its Like they were Reading my Mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agility View Post
They made a modification to the leading edge by adding weight. I think this solved the flutter problem. I've had no issues in 50 knots of winds. Time will tell.

Performance wise, I think the foils provide a little less power than a traditional rig but the trade off for such easy sail handling and reefing is well worth it in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
Thanks Agility for the insight.

So both rigs self destructed through "flutter"?

Is there any other system on the trailing edges to deal with this eventuality , or was adding weight in some sort of counterbalance arrangement to the leading edge the only control measure for flutter?

Regards
__________________
Seaslug Caravan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2016, 04:48   #105
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 297
Images: 6
Re: SMG 50, its Like they were Reading my Mind

I don't know the details of the other rigs but many mods have been made since the first foils were produced. The new ones are stronger, Kevlar shrouds and no flaps. Alwoplast has been great at supporting owners from what I can tell.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________

__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What Were They Thinking? Sand crab Multihull Sailboats 14 23-09-2012 08:10
Its Not How Much Someone Costs, Its What You Bring to the Table. s/v Beth Our Community 27 28-02-2012 10:50
Procrastination . . . Boy, Were they Lucky . . . Chief Engineer Engines and Propulsion Systems 6 13-12-2010 20:50
SMG 50 A-Frame Mast Setup downunder Multihull Sailboats 2 14-12-2009 02:26


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:13.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.