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Old 20-05-2012, 11:14   #61
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I'm with Bob on this one. If the a frame mast is really the cats ass I think there would be more use of it. It's not a new design and not popular, there has to be a reason for this.
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Old 20-05-2012, 11:21   #62
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Originally Posted by deckofficer

Bob, your an old salt and know that race boats have to pass muster with their self imposed rules. Maybe I'm out of touch, but is there a truly open class without handicaps?
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We get it if it is different it is better!!!
Yes it's called line honors or first over the line or gun boat. It is the most coveted award IMHO, and really the only award that multihulls have in 90% of races as there is not much class racing in big multis. Some new ideas are just bad others are not there yet. Electric propulsion is a great example people put their hard earned money up left and right everyone seemed to think it was great including me. The failure rate, according to boat manufactures was basically 100% and also according to practical sailor to date it has not worked.
Multihull designers on the performance end like Chris White or M&M would build a figure eight frame mast if it meant you could have performance and easy sail handling.

You keep talking 20 knots. The smg hit 19 once, according to the owner, on a broad reach with the main completely furled, just using the screecher. Look at the delivery blog average speeds for the new SMG with the larger main sail. They were marginal at best. In fact their averages would be disappointing for an experienced 50 foot mono sailor. The SMG is super light great beam to length ratios that will give you good speed off the wind where the main is of limited use.
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Old 22-05-2012, 06:42   #63
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Flight Risk, my point was that, contrary to what you allege, the ratio of main to headsail is nowhere near the same, let alone worse than on older Prouts (which carried the vast majority of their SA in the foretriangle). Furthermore, the underbody shape is not the same as on Wharrams: apart from the keel there is a cutaway for the afterbody and a relatively flat run aft ending in a transom. Finally, while the design parameters for monohulls and catamarans are not identical, nevertheless there are numerous similarites and in particular, in terms of keel design. On cats that are equipped with keels, for example, FP has moved away from the long, LAR keels that were once in vogue, towards somewhat deeper, higher aspect-ratio fins. These are clearly more effective (whether on a mono or a multi) for creating lift. What I was suggesting is that the keel design on this boat, to the extent that it seems to mirror the design on Intrepid, may be better than the long, stubby LAR keels that are more commonly in use (if not, as indicated, as effective as a deep, high-aspect ratio fin).

Like you, and again as indicated, I take the quoted performance numbers with a grain a salt. However, I still consider it to be an interesting concept and suspect it may perform better than many of the current crop of cats with beamier huills, and long, LAR keels.

Brad
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Old 22-05-2012, 07:53   #64
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

smj, I wouldn't suggest that the A-frame mast is the cat's ass, but it strikes me as an interesting concept for a short-handed cruising cat. As I see it, the disadvantages:

1. Cost. Likely more expensive initially as most manufacturers can purchase spars virtually 'out of the box' from manufacturers such as Selden, etc.
2. Increased windage underway.
3. Lack of a boom will have a detrimental effect on sail shape.

Advantages:

1. Rig requires virtually no tuning.
2. Mounts mast on the most solid part of a cat, as opposed to the weakest (wide bridgedeck). This may enable a lighter structure in the bridgedeck.
3. A-frame mast should be stronger laterally and no weaker longitudinally.
4. Improves forward visibility, especially for bulkhead mounted steering stations.
5. Likely less windage under anchor - i.e., no large sail cover/boom bag.
6. Does not require a power winch to raise the main.
7.Twin boomless, furling sails should be incredibly easy to set, douse and reef. Futhermore, eliminates the need for and clutter caused by lazy jacks. sail cover, topping lift, etc.
8. Likely less maintenance costs as less standing rigging to need replacement and no need to replace a boom bag, lazy jacks, topping lift, etc.

Personally, I'd be surprised if it performs as well to windward as a more traditional rig. However, as a cruising rig it does seem to have some serious advantages on a cat and, if the performance defecit wasn't too large.... Anyway, it would be wonderful to sail one to see how it performs in real world conditions, but I can't imagine a more simple rig for short-handed sailing.

Brad
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Old 22-05-2012, 19:03   #65
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

""seem to have some serious advantages on a cat and, if the performance defecit wasn't too large.... Anyway, it would be wonderful to sail one to see how it performs in real world conditions, but I can't imagine a more simple rig for short-handed sailing.""

Exactly!

How frustrating to have a couple ( or more?) of these large innovative cats actually out there...sailing...yet here we are debating if they are any good.
In these days of instant information exchange...it's pretty crazy, actually.
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Old 22-05-2012, 19:23   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star
smj, I wouldn't suggest that the A-frame mast is the cat's ass, but it strikes me as an interesting concept for a short-handed cruising cat. As I see it, the disadvantages:

1. Cost. Likely more expensive initially as most manufacturers can purchase spars virtually 'out of the box' from manufacturers such as Selden, etc.
2. Increased windage underway.
3. Lack of a boom will have a detrimental effect on sail shape.

Advantages:

1. Rig requires virtually no tuning.
2. Mounts mast on the most solid part of a cat, as opposed to the weakest (wide bridgedeck). This may enable a lighter structure in the bridgedeck.
3. A-frame mast should be stronger laterally and no weaker longitudinally.
4. Improves forward visibility, especially for bulkhead mounted steering stations.
5. Likely less windage under anchor - i.e., no large sail cover/boom bag.
6. Does not require a power winch to raise the main.
7.Twin boomless, furling sails should be incredibly easy to set, douse and reef. Futhermore, eliminates the need for and clutter caused by lazy jacks. sail cover, topping lift, etc.
8. Likely less maintenance costs as less standing rigging to need replacement and no need to replace a boom bag, lazy jacks, topping lift, etc.

Personally, I'd be surprised if it performs as well to windward as a more traditional rig. However, as a cruising rig it does seem to have some serious advantages on a cat and, if the performance defecit wasn't too large.... Anyway, it would be wonderful to sail one to see how it performs in real world conditions, but I can't imagine a more simple rig for short-handed sailing.

Brad
Brad, you've made some really good points. It would be great if it is a viable option to the standard rig. The design has been around quite awhile. Jacques Cousteau's catamaran had the aframe rig and it was built I think at least 30 years ago. I go back to the thought that if it was a good option to the standard rig why hasn't it been more popular?
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Old 22-05-2012, 19:24   #67
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

As a single-hander my interest is always piqued when there is an innovation that works well for short handed sailing. I'm willing to give up some performance on certain points of sail to be able to douse (shorten sail) quickly. I've never sailed a cat (but have sailed a tri F28), all my off shore experience is in a Cal 40. I think without cat experience I feel more comfortable in a mono for the reason of self de-powering, as heel helps dump the energy of gusts. Anything that can help my head wrap around a cat will relax my anxiety about passage making in a cat. You good folks that are out cruising your cats, please chime in and tell me, short handed you love your cat because ........ (fill in all pluses).
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Old 23-05-2012, 06:36   #68
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

SMJ, I know the rig has been around for quite awhile and can only speculate as to the reasons for its lack of popularity. However, here are some thoughts:

1. Appearance. I, for one, don't like the appearance and lets face it, dockside appeal means something to all manufacturers.
2. Most people are afraid to invest a substantial amount of money in an unproven concept. While some are prepared to do so in a racing boat (and good ideas derived therefrom often find their way into production cruising boats), this is decidedly not an idea that would appeal to a racer - I think we can all agree that whatever the case, it won't improve and is not intended to improve ultimate performance.
Put another way, cruisers tend to be more conservative than racers when it comes to yacht design.
3. Initial cost. As already suggested above, I suspect that the initial cost of engineering and producing the spars, chainplates, and related hardware - which will need to be custom, will be greater than making use of off-the-shelf items that are already in production for a standard rig.
4. Maybe the performance deficit is too great for the apparent benefits in utility and ease of use. Only testing can determine that.

Brad
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Old 23-05-2012, 08:00   #69
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

I wonder about the weight of the total rig including the sails compared to the standard rig. The A-frame itself is heavier but when balanced against the regular rigging and hardware I wonder if it would be a wash. The SMG is light but I believe most of that is in the constuction method of the boat itself.
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Old 23-05-2012, 14:01   #70
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
It's not the volts it's the amps. That 12v car battery will kill you too.
Yeah, just it is about 33.33 times safer. (12V)
That is if you are not made of a highly conductive material.
No way do I work on live 400v, 2/3 ph systems, in thongs on a wet floors, with no gloves, like I do with 12V.
Besides, 400v?? Is that for the electric drive?
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Old 24-05-2012, 02:58   #71
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

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Yeah, just it is about 33.33 times safer. (12V)
That is if you are not made of a highly conductive material.
No way do I work on live 400v, 2/3 ph systems, in thongs on a wet floors, with no gloves, like I do with 12V.
Besides, 400v?? Is that for the electric drive?
i don't think you would work on a 12v system with 400+ amps like that, you could happily blow holes in steel with that kind of energy.

i haven't looked at the boat but usually the batteries are in packs of 36-72v with earth leakage breakers on each pack, 400v only from the controller to electric motor.
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Old 24-05-2012, 15:33   #72
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

I love it. It's the alternative I've been looking for. This boat will save me from a career as a yacht designer (maybe).

Here are my thoughts on this design (comparing to the Lagoon, the only boat in this class I've seen in person):

1) The center cockpit is beautiful, and gives a great view forward with the ability to socialize with the guests, but appears to lack visibility to the rear corners of the boat. Never having sailed such a boat, I don't know if this is really a huge disadvantage.

2) The salon seems somewhat small compared to the Lagoon, being sandwiched between the cockpit and the rear swim deck. The utility of that rear deck seem less than the Lagoon as well, which does triple duty as a cockpit, swim deck, and dining area

3) I love the galley-up design of lagoons, keeping everyone on the same level, but then WOW what a galley this boat has. It recovers the lost salon at the apparant expense of some cabin and head space - not entirely sure if that is accurate. It looks like the owners version of this might have a truly expansive main cabin, though, which might be really spectacular compared to the utilitarian style of the Lagoons.

4) I love the idea that you can reach the foredeck without scrambling around the outside of the main cabin - LOVE IT - and walkthrough to the rear deck - WOW. Where have these guys been?

I'm hoping that either this boat will be more accessible (price-wise) than the Lagoons, or else will raise the bar to the point that Lagoons will come off their price in the future. I am not rich or stuffy by any means, but for my usage the lagoon simply appears to be the bottom limit to meet my future needs. I look forward to this market developing more fully in the near years to come!
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Old 24-05-2012, 17:40   #73
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i don't think you would work on a 12v system with 400+ amps like that, you could happily blow holes in steel with that kind of energy.

i haven't looked at the boat but usually the batteries are in packs of 36-72v with earth leakage breakers on each pack, 400v only from the controller to electric motor.
The generator is 400 V as well as the motor controllers.
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Old 27-05-2012, 10:40   #74
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Personally, I'd be surprised if it performs as well to windward as a more traditional rig. However, as a cruising rig it does seem to have some serious advantages on a cat and, if the performance defecit wasn't too large.... Anyway, it would be wonderful to sail one to see how it performs in real world conditions, but I can't imagine a more simple rig for short-handed sailing.

Brad
I'm for that!

If I get my numbers right that is what I want on my next cat. With enough money to build I would gladly be a test bed.

electric vs diesel......................not so sure.
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Old 19-05-2014, 15:44   #75
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Re: SMG 50, its like they were reading my mind

It appears that the latest SMG 50 went with diesels and saildrives. Still kept the electric galley and induction cook top.

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