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Old 02-07-2008, 08:31   #1
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Small Liveaboard Cat Search

Hello,

After a post on the FP Louisiane I am redirecting my search with a more general thread which seems a lot smarter (I guess I learn fast ?) !

We own a 27 ft monohull but consider switching to a Cat for liveaboard and extended cruising...

My budget for the boat... good one... in the range of 100 to 120k Euro...
Would look at buying in the 50-80k range so there would be plenty of room left for some improvements... (there always are improvements and unforeseen expenses to a second hand boat)

We intend, once we have the boat, to move on and start sailing, we would not want it as a day or weekend sailer, I have my Jaguar 27 monohull that does this job perfectly, it easily allows us to go on extended weekends or even longer vacations...
Once liveaboard we will be dependent on our investments income and I want this to be on the safe side...
So every Euro spent is a Euro away from our liveaboard plan, if we are able to get a good cat ready to go for 100k(Euro's) that's where we will go, to the sooner the better. (but will not compromise on safety, maintenance, equipment etc... the boat should be in great shape when we leave)

We would plan on doing some coastal sailing as a start, region and schedule undefined, could be here in Europe, Africa, US, name it... Does not really matter, sailing is great !!! Last year we talked with an English skipper who had been sailing for 7 years, initially left the UK and now sailing Turkey, but hell he enjoyed every minute of it... So a timing on planning to start ocean crossings we can not give. But if the cat we buy would be circumnavigation capable it would avoid us having to trade boats when we decide to go for it.

How well do they it sail? Anybody has a polar or can tell us how she does windward? What speeds can be obtained while cruising? How easy they sail (singlehanded?)... (after all we will be looking at older Cat's)

If it has a dual diesel inboard setup, we are Ok with this... If we find one with outboard engine setup, I initially was not thrilled about this but after thinking a bit it doesn't look too bad... We would probably replace the outboards with a dual electrical outboard setup. We see outboard engines as inside space savers. Electrical setup means instant access to silent power, no need to bother about thinking of emergence engine start in case something happens, just move the throttle and motor off... Does this sound crazy?
Would put one on the dingy as well so no gasoline required in the boat! A diesel gen unit could be used if we really drain the batteries down. (otherwise battery charge through wind/solar system or shore power) And since a diesel gen would bring Mr Diesel on board, Mr webasto will nicely heat up our entire boat as he does on our monohull !...

It looks like the Benetteau II might be a better candidate than the FP louisiane... Any other candidates ? Oh yes, required headroom... We are 5' 8" and 5' 9" (The Mrs and me that is ;-)

Ending this initial post on this one, hope to get interesting feedback and comments...
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Old 02-07-2008, 09:24   #2
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I'd avoid the Beneteau. When the adverts for it first appeared it was the first catamaran buuilt by a major French yard. So a number of people bought one before the first was built. I don't think anyone bought one once it was launched.

It is slow, pitches badly, the accommodation is small, inconvenient and the bridgedeck slams. Also, as it was built in three sections, it sqeaked a lot when sailing.

The Louisiane was a better boat, but also very small for living on board.

Why not try my Flica 37? There is one for sale on my website for EURO105,000. It is very fully equipped and has made 4 Atlantic crossings and been a great liveaboard cruiser. Sisterships have made numerous ocean passages, the longest is UK to Australia. A number were chartered in the Med in the 1990's

Hope this helps

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Old 03-07-2008, 13:39   #3
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Hi djeeke,

Have a look at the Lerouge cats at Erik Lerouge International. The Ksenia33 demonstrator is for sale at €90.000. Or an older Cite D'alet might suit you.

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Old 12-02-2009, 15:13   #4
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Hi you all...

I have been silent for some time due to some drastic changes in my life but am still dreaming...
And we still want to live our dream so reviving this thread !!!
Our budget has been cut quite a bit but we can still go for a bit older (and I guess a bit smaller) boat than planned last year.

We had a look around and saw a 32ft Iroquois (listed on yachtworld, located in Italy) and one listed on pacificbrokers (named Skana Sting, located BC) that could be possible candidates.

So any Iroquois owners (and people who have sailed them), please feel welcome to give us some feedback on this boat... (I read somewhere the sailplan could be improved and the Iroquois might have tendancy to lift a hull (capsize danger?))

Would there be room to install a shower ?
With the outboard engines, how to best produce electricity for the appliances? (I am still thinking converting to electrical propulsion and installing a diesel gen but am afraid this smaller cat will not be able to cope with the extra weight of the batteries and generator so maybe keeping the outboards and just installing a smaller gen would be a better choice)

Is there a big difference in space and carrying capacity between the 30 and 32 ft Iroquois? If not, obviously there are some 30ft ones on the market as well that could be interesting for us...

Anyway, many thanks for any feedback, keep in mind we are looking for a liveaboard boat !
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Old 12-02-2009, 23:10   #5
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Iroquois

I live on and love my Iroquois 30

You'd have to be pushing it pretty hard to be in danger of flipping. Why not just sail cautiously, and never even have the thought cross your mind??
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Old 13-02-2009, 03:23   #6
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With your budget there is a 10m Catalac available in Port Napolean. It needs some work (within your funding limit), but would be an excellent choice.
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Old 16-02-2009, 09:22   #7
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I do agree that the Iroquois is a really great boat that has been around forever/ it sails well and holds it value. Also take a look at older Gemini's (PerformanceCruising.com). We lived on one with our daughter for 5 years and it's a really good live aboad with standing headroom throughout. Performance Cruising has a London office. Robin (don't know his last name) is in charge and can give you info. There's a gemini owners association that has a classified listing that's pretty active (Gemini Gems), but it's mostly US boats. Robin may be able to direct you to to used Gemini's in Europe. Good Luck!

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Old 18-02-2009, 05:33   #8
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Hobart 900

Hi !

Anybody any info / ideas on the Hobart 900 Catamaran ?
Just saw one one for sale in France on multisailing.com reference 26630

thx ;-)
Djeeke
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Old 18-02-2009, 05:57   #9
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Boy we just love our Prout Event 34. Seems like this would be perfect for you.
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Old 18-02-2009, 06:16   #10
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over budget

Thanks, but the prout 34 is over budget for us, I can find some iroquois for sale around 30k euro's, the hobart 900 I mentioned has an asking price of 26k Euro, I do not see any prout 34 in this price range...
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Old 18-02-2009, 10:01   #11
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Djeeke, if you are looking at a budget of 30k euro's, you may be best to consider some monohulls. The Iroquois was a very good performer, if kept light, although there are reports of wind-driven capsizes including one, if I recall correctly, in the English Channel a few years ago. That being said, in the early days they did quite well in the Admiralty Cup races and yes, one can always reef early.

There have been problems reported with the center-boards in many of the boats and the repairs can be both difficult and costly; indeed, in one boat that I am familiar with in Georgian Bay the owner gave up and had keels installed.

As you are probably aware, you will not have standing headroom in the main saloon and this can be a nuisance for a liveaboard; nor will you have the ability to carry much in way of stores for extended cruising. In addition, the head is rather small for the installation of a shower (although a cockpit shower could be readily installed).

In short, while they were and are great boats they are really not intended for extended cruising, especially in cooler climates.

Brad
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Old 18-02-2009, 10:32   #12
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Thanks Brad !
Yes we are aware of this and if we will not be able to find a suitable multihull we will turn towards a monohull..
But as I mentioned before, I also saw a Hobart 900, this is also a 30 ft catamaran with a beam of 14ft 7 inches. Asking price is 26000 Euro.
Also no standing headroom in the main saloon though but more room in the hulls...
The boat's interior is better than the Iroquois but I don't know anything about the sailing characteristics.
The current owner claims it is in excellent condition and ready to go sailing...

Honestly, if this is a solid boat with no known structural defaults and with correct sailing abilities, this one might be perfect for us !

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Old 18-02-2009, 12:15   #13
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Efficiency of electric

I don't have first-hand knowledge of the cats, but from an engineering viewpoint, the electric outboard system you mention would be very inefficient. Between the electrical generator and the electric motor, the efficiency would be roughly 50% at low power and roughly 70% at high power. Compare that to the mechanical transmission of a diesel outboard, 90 to 95% for the same power levels, and you can see that you could lose a great deal. If you have enough solar power generation aboard, the efficiency isn't important, but a large portion of the boat would need to be covered with solar cells to keep up with the motors, which would run at roughly 70% to 85% efficiency at low and high power respectively.

Hope this helps.
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Old 18-02-2009, 12:44   #14
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djeeke, the 'Hobart 900' looks like a decent design, from what I can see: seemingly good bridgedeck clearance (assuming the anti-fouling is actually above the waterline); quite a bit of rocker which should assist her in heavy seas; since she has no keels, I suspect she has boards - which should improve her ability to point; no solid bridgedeck forward which should keep weight down precisely where you don't need it; a curve on the leading edge of the bridgedeck which tends to reduce pounding.

Here are some things to ponder:
1. she is built out of frp encapsulated plywood and hence, her resale will always be lower.
2. since she was built 32 years ago, you must be especially concerned about rot. If there were internal frames, even with limber holes water will become trapped and lead inevitably to rot.

I would definitely want a comprehensive survey by someone I trust and, even then I think I would prefer an Iroquois 32 which has an established reputation and frp construction.

Brad
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Old 18-02-2009, 13:12   #15
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By co incidence I got the following email from Erik Lerouge yesterday.

==================

"a French cat was lost in French caribbean just before Christmas.

Boat was an homebuilt 30 y/o Hobart 900. 9m x 4,50m, originally very light and not a bad performer.
She was "adapted" to voyaging in putting a double decker cabin which had some negative influence on the rig.
Boat was sailed by a family of 4. Needless to say that she was widely overloaded.
As it turned out, they found themselves in the lee of the islands and reported gales conditions. Most probaly a fresh tradewind quite frequent there. They found that they could not sail to windward in these conditions. Finally decking broke at the side decks, due to side wave impact and the had to abandon ship. Fortunately, the were rescued.
Although this is a structural issue, this is still of our concern in showing how an otherwise not too bad cat can be spoiled by its owner and sailed much above its design limits. This is relevent in giving a category, huge windage for its sail carrying ability made it impossible to sail upwind in what probably did not exceed F7/8 (enough to scare an inexperience family on a poor small boat). I know the original cat could do it!"
============================

I think you will find the Iroquois very small for a couple living on board - unless you are short. I cannot sit at the front of the saloon even though I am only 1.75m tall.

Loading capacity will be a problem as well. I know people who cruise them and live onboard but the comfort level is usually low and may be too low for you.

Despite what others have said the Iroquois has one of the worst capsize record ever. The 32ft version just had lengthened sterns, no other real changes. I know the boat for sale in BC, but, because of the exchange rates, I would think a UK Iroquois would be a lot cheaper.

Hope you find the boat of your dreams

Richard Woods of Woods Designs, currently cruising his 34ft Romany in the Bahamas (even though it is for sale)

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