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Old 25-08-2008, 07:37   #1
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Small Cat - Which One?

So here I am thinking about building my own catamaran.
I ruled out the second hand market for me. Catamaran of my size are few and I found those I looked at old and worn out.
You end up fixing / replacing other people's problems. At the end you spend hundreds of hours, lots of money and still own an old boat. Real bargains are rare as everywhere.

Use: Some local cruising in the North / Baltic sea. Then take off for "extended holidays" of 1 or maybe 2 years in the Carribean with wife and two small kids (5 & 6 years on departure). No intention to go much further. I'd like to keep the boat after the trip for holiday cruising and if time / money allows another trip (??).

Requirements
One double, plus a double or two singles for the kids, a bridgedeck saloon (not for the tropics but here!), a separate heads compartment, acceptable galley. Additional berths would only be used for storage, no intention to take guests for more than one or two days. No need for luxuries, we can hapily live an "ehanced camping lifestyle".

The cat needs to be large enough to do the job, carrying the provisions for 2+2 for 4 weeks. Acceptable performance to windward. Shoal draft. Be single handed easily.
Simple construction with simple materials. Flat panels where it fits for speedy build, curves where windage or good looks require them. Two small outboards for tight quarters.
Small enough to be and remain affordable - both in terms of money and maintenance time. I prefer sailing to maintenance or wage slavery work. So smaller and simpler is better. My inteded size is 28-30 ft, or 8.5-9 meters.

Basically I came to two designs:
Woods Sagitta http://www.sailingcatamarans.com/sagitta.htm
and
Kohler KD860 http://www.ikarus342000.com/P86page.htm

But now I am stuck...
Which one would you prefer?


Thanks
Hannes
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Old 25-08-2008, 07:53   #2
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woods eclipse - slightly larger, but a good load carrier and a newer design
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Old 25-08-2008, 07:59   #3
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I know this is a bit bigger than what you have mentioned, but it is available in kit form and looks very cheap to build.

http://www.lavranosyachtdesign.co.nz/sc_10m-multi.htm


Check it out.

regards

Alan
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Old 25-08-2008, 11:49   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
woods eclipse - slightly larger, but a good load carrier and a newer design
The acclaimed empty weight is
KD860 1.4ton, Sagitta 1.8to, Eclipse 2.5to

That's a lot more boat to build... I guess that's beyond my limits in time, money, dedication and family support.

I certainly agree that Eclipse is a a good step upward but if I look at it that way I will be in the 40ft range soon... There is always somehing bigger better but at the end it will cost a significant premium (time and / or money). Time / Money aside I love the Woods Transit.

Just for the records: The payload figures are:
KD860 1.4to, Sagitta 0.9to, Eclipse 1.2to


The KD860 is from 2006 so younger than Eclipse (sometime late 90s I guess). So if the figures are correct the KD860 is designed to be a load carrier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I know this is a bit bigger than what you have mentioned, but it is available in kit form and looks very cheap to build.

http://www.lavranosyachtdesign.co.nz/sc_10m-multi.htm
I had seen this one. Building method looks just like the KD860, but again much more boat to build. And payload figures for the Proteus are at ~0.9to if I remember correctly. BTW: The KD860 is available in kit form from the same supplier (half the cost of the Proteus).


Figures are in favour of the KD860 but the Woods have a good reputation...
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Old 25-08-2008, 12:07   #5
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Pat Ross of Multihull Dynamics is running a workshop with Derek Kelsall on KSS soon, where they will build the hulls for a KD860 that is slightly streched.

Take a look here: www.multihulldynamics.com/news_article.asp?articleID=139

Might be worthwile to go or maybe get some video footage. KSS can save you alot of time.

regards

Alan
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Old 25-08-2008, 12:38   #6
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Originally Posted by hannes99 View Post
Which one would you prefer?
Have never built a boat. and know little about catamarans, so..........

If both meet your requirements I would consider more favourably one with a good number of boats built and in the water.

Both as a recomendation that the design works in real life (good also to track some first hand comments from owners and builders - not always the same view!) and the more built probably more likely that any build wrinkles have been sorted or are at least known.

Of course I dunno in this case if both have decent build runs!


But in any case, the real purpose of my post was to say: "really great plan"
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Old 25-08-2008, 12:54   #7
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Pat Ross of Multihull Dynamics is running a workshop with Derek Kelsall on KSS soon, where they will build the hulls for a KD860 that is slightly streched.

Take a look here: www.multihulldynamics.com/news_article.asp?articleID=139

Might be worthwile to go or maybe get some video footage. KSS can save you alot of time.

regards

Alan
Good to know, I wasn't aware of that! Thanks for the link!
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Old 25-08-2008, 13:04   #8
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If both meet your requirements I would consider more favourably one with a good number of boats built and in the water.
I really have no favourite- that's why I'm asking for other opinions. Both have their strong and weak points.

Sagitta
+number of boats in the water
+only nice comments
+available as a production cat
+wider hull due to the flare
+access to mast from cockpit
-weak load carrier
-longer build time due to flares and curves
-more draft

KD860
+much better load carrier
+lower draft
+provides more privacy
+larger saloon
+overall a lower profile
+simpler to construct
-Only one has hit the water (it's a new design from 2006, several are under way)
-no widely available experience with anti vortex panels
-possibly lower resale value (woods do sell for good prices)

Both have reputable designers, although you need to go back some time for references to Bernd Kohler due to his ten years sailing holiday (see the circumnavigation of the "Zeeman" in the early 90s).

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey View Post
But in any case, the real purpose of my post was to say: "really great plan"
I hope it works out :-)
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Old 25-08-2008, 14:41   #9
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Based on your data above I would go for the Kohler design. The anti-vortex panels will work, simple physics, though I doubt that they need to be quite as big as he makes them.

The layout is better for a family cruiser, and you expect to keep it for a number of years as you say.

Good luck

Alan
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Old 26-08-2008, 00:36   #10
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Not having standing headroom in the bridgedeck on the KD 860 would be a deal killer for me.
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Old 26-08-2008, 01:15   #11
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Not having standing headroom in the bridgedeck on the KD 860 would be a deal killer for me.
Sagitta has about the same headroom, maybe 10cm more but not standing headroom.
The only way to have standing headrom on the bridgedeck of a cat of that size is to either accept a high profile (=> windage) or to compromise bridgedeck clearance (=> slamming).


I can live with good sitting headroom. I'd love to get rid of the bridgedeck but I haven't seen a cat of this size that has an acceptable sitting area for at least 6 people in a hull. A sitting area where you can spend a rainy day with at least 4.

My dream machine would be a Shuttle Tektron 35 but that's way out of reach.
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Old 26-08-2008, 04:55   #12
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What hasn't been mentioned is that at anchor, those of us who own smaller cats spend most of our time in the cockpit, not seated inside the boat. This is the main living area and the foredeck the main lounging area.

Some Cats have a hardtop covering their cockpit, but most have designed their own soft top. I hesitate to call these Bimini's because of the area they cover. My small 8 meter Catalac seats 10 - 12 adults in the cockpit, but only 6 at the Saloon table. With your intended use in the Caribbean, this should be a deciding factor.

Which boat has a livable cockpit?
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Old 26-08-2008, 06:27   #13
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With your intended use in the Caribbean, this should be a deciding factor.

Which boat has a livable cockpit?
I'd say both are equally suited for that purpose.
KD860 is a bit wider but Eclipse a bit longer. Both provide seating for a number of people but no good place for a table. Sagitta's seating is purposly built as seating, you are not simply using the hull side as a backrest which may not have the right shape for that purpose. The KD860 allows to seat more (not that anything beyond ~6 is important for me).

Same for the saloon which I will use more than I want to when doing weekend and holiday sails (the northern part of Europe receives more than enough rainy days).

So still a draw...
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Old 26-08-2008, 07:07   #14
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You can't stand in the salon of a KD860. Trust me ... you'll want to stand or at least move around on rainy days. The KD860 stikes me as a go-fast day sailor with minimal accomodations and little if any feed back from owners. The Eclipse is a boat that was designed by a very well known and experienced boat designer. They have crossed oceans and are apparently more capable than the fella who designed her gave her credit for.

If it's between these two boats, IMHO, it's an easy choice.
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Old 26-08-2008, 08:10   #15
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The Eclipse is a boat that was designed by a very well known and experienced boat designer. They have crossed oceans and are apparently more capable than the fella who designed her gave her credit for.
I think that is being very harsh. I am sure that the main reason for the abandonment was his concern for his passenger.
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