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Old 07-05-2014, 05:14   #16
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

Quote:
cwjohm: while i agree with you till a certain point about size, i am not so sure about cats aging quickly. Do you mean design? Features? Boat itself? Because in the market there are many older cats, very well maintained, that have nothing to envy to much newer and roughly used charter boats.
In my opening post i made an example between 2 boats: FP orana and belize. Very similar boats. Often very different prices and very small age differences. This is the case where i would have some indecision: if both are in same conditions, should i buy the newer one and more expensive o the one slightly older and save something that could be handy "just in case"?
Well firstly let us discount charter boats. I would not buy one.

Let us discount poorly maintained boats. I would not buy one.

Then as far as the Belize and the Orana are concerned they are a different generation boat and different in many ways, so of course the price will be different.

My Orana is two years old. I think the Belize was discontinued in 2006 (guessing).

As far as showing age is concerned look in the bilges, check out the motors, check out the sail rig and so on and so forth and you will see an older boat will invariably show its age.

The laws of physics cannot be repealed. Providing a boat is used the motors will accumulate hours, the sails will wear, the rig and steering mechanisms will be stressed, the glass will deteriorate under weather and solar loading, the sheets will fray, the electronics and electrics will be closer to final use, the through hole valves will deteriorate, the head innards will wear and calcify, the pumps will start to sieze and so on and so forth.
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Old 07-05-2014, 06:28   #17
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

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Originally Posted by CortoMaltese View Post
As said earlier my intention is to buy a really sound well maintained boat, and of course after a complete survey so i think that 30% of the cat price as a reserve is not really needed. Then consider that in any case even if i use all my 300k budget, indeet i am not using all my funds. But the difference in price between 2 similar cats can be invested in something else.
So what i wonder is how much a higher price justify a slightly newer cat when we are talking about very similar design/conditions/features.
er ok.

  • When your sat there, with your sails shredded from operating in a storm when you got caught out...... please remember this conversation.
  • When your mast gets hit by lightening and it takes out your engines and all electrics..... and your fighting the insurance company for months and cant go anywhere....... please remember this conversation.
  • When your heads all block up and it requires a strip and replace of pipes and seacocks, please remember this conversation.
  • When you find out your surveyor was not as thorough as he ought to have been...... please remember this conversation.
  1. Reality check. Insurance cost 0.75-2% of your vessels insured worth in a premium p.a.
  2. Maintenance costs, minor repairs, haul outs, bottom cleans, about 10% p.a if you are lucky.
  3. Extras.......
  4. Fees for entry and exit countries, berthing costs, et etc...
Just ONE major issue not covered by insurance will justifiy my 30% figure overall.

Its NOT a home on dry land. Its a boat in a harsh marine environment. **** happens to new and old.

Ask me how I know and ask anyone about ongoing costs of maintaining a vessel.

I purchased a lightly used (3 year old) $250K 42 foot powerboat in Florida.

It cost me 60K a year for 2 years for fuel and repairs to keep the vessel in top shape. Lets say $25K a year for maintenance and repairs.

I was told recently that my previous vessel, of which I had put in one new engine and had the other refurbished 3 years ago at the cost of several thousands of dollars, has just had the new engine replaced because the current owner got a clogged water inlet in the Bahamas and it overheated and caused issues.

Buying a well maintained vessel minimises the odds of issues, but does NOT eliminate them....

The CHEAPEST part of boating is buying a vessel.
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Old 07-05-2014, 06:44   #18
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

cwjohn, you are of course correct - boats deteriorate over time. Use/abuse (including, potentially, a history as a charter boat) and environment are also factors. Boats that are sailed in fresh water for 5 months a year and then properly stored will typically have much less wear and tear. However, IMO age and previous charter use can be deceiving, rather than deciding factors.

Take two 7 or 8 year old boats of the same model - one which was in charter for the first 5 years and then extensively refurbished/upgraded, and another which was not chartered, but cruised extensively and which has the original sails, diesels, lifelines, standing rigging, etc. What would you rather have, the boat with relatively new/low hour diesels, newer sails, canvass, running and standing rigging and upgraded electronics, or the one which will soon need replacement of various systems? In that case, would the charter history scare you off the former boat; alternatively, would the fact that boat two has never been chartered cause you to pay a premium?

The current location of the OP will make 'tire-kicking' various boats more difficult. Nevertheless, if after he had done his internet searches, he were to take a couple of weeks in Southern Florida (the largest supply in close proximity), having pre-booked a number of viewings, he should be able to come out with a much better idea of the market.

Brad
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:15   #19
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

There is an inherent tension when buying a boat between determining which specific make/model of boat you want, and finding a boat that has been well maintained AND is a good value.

For my most recent boat, I went through the process, based on my requirements (price range, live aboard, blue water, build quality, and a few other things) of selecting the specific make/model of boat I wanted. Once I had settled on that, I moved to finding the right example of that boat; one that had been recently refit, had been relatively well maintained, and was a good value with respect to other examples recently sold or then currently on the market or expected soon to be.

This is a good process if you have the time and flexibility to wait for the right boat to come along since it separates and "linearizes" the decision process. That said, there is something to be said for being less make/model specific and looking for a boat that fits your original general requirements and is an outstanding value, for whoever reason. I know plenty of people who have done that and ended up with spectacular value in what they bought.

Regarding your feature list, I would be very careful about getting too specific, and also settling on features that you have identified in the abstract. Very often a feature that you decided was mandatory turns out, once you live with it, to be irrelevant or even a negative. For example, I know many people who insisted on two heads on their boat and then, after living with the boat for awhile, ended up using the second head as a storage locker and wishing that they had the space for something else. So when it comes to features, other than the very broad ones, don't get too hung up on them unless you are certain, from prior real world experience, that they are really beneficial and mandatory. Also, don't get hung up on "bolt-on" features. If it can be added later at reasonable cost, then it's not something that should figure in your process. A lot of people lose sight of this for reasons that are a mystery to me.

As far as traveling to look at boats on the market, I would be exceedingly cautious about that. EVERY boat looks better in pictures, and a two paragraph blurb is always optimistic with respect to condition.

In my most recent boat search, I looked at over 60 boats...I mean went and looked at them, walked on them, and poked around in them. A good number of those I was excited about and looking forward to viewing them, only to realize within seconds of being on the boat that it was not a candidate, usually due to general level of maintenance that was not apparent in the pictures, description, and conversation with the broker. If you're going to travel any distance to look at a boat, request CURRENT pictures and ask the broker some hard questions about the boat's history and state of maintenance.

Since you're looking at recent cats, the best thing you can do right now is, as mentioned, continually scan the boats on the market to develop a general context in your head of what goes for what money, where, and in what condition. Building this database in your head is crucial to giving you the knowledge required to make a sound decision and know that you've found the right boat. Get on as many boats as possible, even if you don't think they are a real candidate. When it finally comes time to make an offer and negotiate, this information will be critical to getting the best price possible.

Lastly, it should go without saying that buying an older boat is going to get you more boat for your money, within reason. Boats depreciate at a rate faster than they deteriorate for the most part. Certainly a boat that is 4-6 years old, if well maintained, is going to be a much better value than a newer or brand new boat. Yes there may be some things you may need to fix or replace, but you'll still save a potload of money. Of course, if that new boat smell and shine is important to you enough to lay down more for it, that's personal preference.
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:32   #20
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

Wow 39 too small for 3 people.. Just goes to show how different things are for different people.

We are looking at lagoon 380 or Privilege 39 for our family of 5.

Anyway. Good luck in your search.

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Old 07-05-2014, 10:21   #21
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

Thanx guys, reading and making treasure of all points of view.
Travellerw: in my case will be a liveaboard long term, my house, so i want to feel confortable and a 38/39 while would be great for short term cruising i don't think can manage for longer periods. At least for me.
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:12   #22
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

We are planning long term as well (5-7 years). Originally we had the same idea as you. 45 feet min.

As we have researched over the last year and spoke with many long term cruisers, our view changed. We began to see the go smaller, go now view. It began to make a ton of sense as I got into logistics of anchoring, haulouts and single handing.

One cruiser that I respect a ton and has been out there for 7 years has a family of 5 on a 47ft mono. She has posted a bunch on how they make that work. Lookup her blog. Her name is Behan Gifford.

Of course if I had unlimited money, my view might be different.

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Old 07-05-2014, 11:42   #23
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
My price range is 100k MAX.
I want it as a liveaboard and semi coastal cruiser, but in the Med from Spain to the Balearics and to North Africa. Not far in real terms for cruising.
Im not interested in resale cost simply because the vessels even in 5 years will be about the same as I will pay now, excluding upgrades.

Age difference really is relative to resale cost. To you, the price is dependent NOW on what you want in a boat.

If its worth it to you for a feature to pay MORE for an older vessel but with a superior proven advantage in the feature you want...... then just pay it.

My choice is easier. But seriously, Im not that choosy regarding cosmetics or stuff. I want comfort, all the boats Im looking have it..within the price constraints of course, I want proven seaworthiness... all have done circumnavigation... I want single handed ease of use...... all comply with that requirement.

One thing I have found, is that my price range and older models, the amount of extras is amazing....... I mean some are better equpped electronically than a vessel 3 times the price and have been overhauled significantly in fixing known issues. Its like a new boat!

If you buy a lagoon your a lagoon owner. If you buy an Admiral, your an Admiral owner...... one might be 5 years older than the other but so what....... you bought it... enjoy it.

Sweat the small stuff and you will never purchase. Its your first Cat, it wont be your last.
I sailed that area for 11 years and because of the conditions of no wind or too much wind I would go for a motor/sailer monohull in the 36 foot range .
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Old 07-05-2014, 15:23   #24
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

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Originally Posted by travellerw View Post
We are planning long term as well (5-7 years). Originally we had the same idea as you. 45 feet min.

As we have researched over the last year and spoke with many long term cruisers, our view changed. We began to see the go smaller, go now view. It began to make a ton of sense as I got into logistics of anchoring, haulouts and single handing.

One cruiser that I respect a ton and has been out there for 7 years has a family of 5 on a 47ft mono. She has posted a bunch on how they make that work. Lookup her blog. Her name is Behan Gifford.

Of course if I had unlimited money, my view might be different.

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But you know how it is, you make a lot of plans and shortlists and at the end you might end up with something totally different; that's why i was also asking about how much, if there is a kind of rule, does each foot cost more......i understand it's a complicated question but indeed costs are something that don't leave me indifferent. Few weeks ago i took my wife to the Rio boat show and she didn't feel that confortable in the new Lagoon 38, that's why i shifted to some bigger cats. I think that at the end will be something between 40/43.......and these days, since i am looking after kits i fell in love with th Fusion 40. As said, who knows.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:47   #25
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

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Originally Posted by CortoMaltese View Post
But you know how it is, you make a lot of plans and shortlists and at the end you might end up with something totally different; that's why i was also asking about how much, if there is a kind of rule, does each foot cost more......i understand it's a complicated question but indeed costs are something that don't leave me indifferent. Few weeks ago i took my wife to the Rio boat show and she didn't feel that confortable in the new Lagoon 38, that's why i shifted to some bigger cats. I think that at the end will be something between 40/43.......and these days, since i am looking after kits i fell in love with th Fusion 40. As said, who knows.
I believe the Fusion 40 is really closer to 38ft.

One option for you as you mentioned you were hand with f/glass would be to do a transom extension which several posters have done to a wide range of cats (manta, lightwave, seawind etc). Gives improved speed and load capacity in all cases I have seen.

Cheers
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Old 10-05-2014, 05:56   #26
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
I believe the Fusion 40 is really closer to 38ft.

One option for you as you mentioned you were hand with f/glass would be to do a transom extension which several posters have done to a wide range of cats (manta, lightwave, seawind etc). Gives improved speed and load capacity in all cases I have seen.

Cheers
Yes, i have been reading a lot about the Fusion and looks like it feels smaller than what is supposed to be. I am slowly abandoning the kit/custom cat idea and always more oriented to a production cat that i like; at the end it will be my first cat and i would like to have a positive and smooth experience, so I will try to avoid possible problems or complications.
Cheers!
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Old 10-05-2014, 06:59   #27
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

> Yes, i have been reading a lot about the Fusion and looks like it feels smaller than what is supposed to be

Cat LOA can sometimes be very deceptive when trying to compare "living space".
Look at the Seawind 1000 for example. Went from 33 in the original to nearly 36 foot in the XL2 , but essentially the same plan - they just extended the sugarscoops twice.
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Old 23-09-2014, 07:25   #28
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

CortoMaltese
Very interesting topic for me as well, I'm in a similar position, however with a deviating timeframe for my project.
I am amazed about the boat market and it is in fact a buyers market due to the increasing number of charter boats an the neet to renew charter fleets after 5 to 10 years.
To your original questions: there are in fact considerable price differences even with boats the same age (up to 30%). I think the offerings of charter companies reflect the market value best, these guys have no emotional attechment to their boats, they have made a commercial calculation and if I compare their offerings, they are pretty consistent.
Boat owners are emotional and their asking price has more to do with their expectation than with the market value, and the boat will sit there forever...
My approach is this: Take the purchase price (list price) of a particular model, add 30% for options, depreciate it by 25% for the first year and by 5% for all subsequent years of age. That would be more or less the market value IF there is no maintenance backup, of course. If the boat I'm looking at is in this price range, it's a candidate.
The older the boat, the more risk for maintenance backup (engine overhaul, new sails, new rigging, new batteries, new everything). Therefore for me a used boat should not be older than 5 to 8 years. If there is maintenance backup, I lower the price I'm willing to offer by that investment.
Prices for Belize are in fact much lower than Orana simply because Orana is the newer model. And Orana is followed by Helia. Personally I believe, you can get a used Belize for a very reasonable price, beacause people tend to favour the newer models (new ist better).
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Old 23-09-2014, 09:03   #29
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

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SNIP

My approach is this: Take the purchase price (list price) of a particular model, add 30% for options, depreciate it by 25% for the first year and by 5% for all subsequent years of age. That would be more or less the market value IF there is no maintenance backup, of course.

SNIP

Maybe I should start looking for boats over twenty one years old and see if the owners will pay me money to buy them.
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Old 23-09-2014, 10:30   #30
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Re: Size and age. And costs.

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Maybe I should start looking for boats over twenty one years old and see if the owners will pay me money to buy them.
Tutoring session in depreciation
Listprice: 100'000 * 1.3 * 0.75 * 0.95exp20 = 34'905.-
So the owner will NOT pay you money
Oh sorry, made a mistake
Listprice: 100'000 * 1.3 * 0.75 * 0.95exp21 = 33'150.-
Still no refund
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