Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 14-04-2016, 14:26   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: East of the river CT
Boat: Oday Mariner 19 , Four Winns Marquis 16 OB, Kingfisher III
Posts: 446
Send a message via Skype™ to Colin A
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by basssears View Post
I've got no issues with going up MY mast, but you couldn't pay me to make a career of climbing masts on unknown rigs... way too many variables...
I think that sums it up nicely. When I worked in yacht insurance surveyors we hired were not supposed to go up the mast. We paid several claims to step a mast to inspect after accidents.
__________________

__________________
mysite: Colinism.com
Work for
Bass Products
Colin A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-04-2016, 15:38   #47
Registered User
 
Island Time O25's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,019
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

After reading this thread I now understand why your average survey is not worth the paper it is written on. For a surveyor not to go aloft if the mast is on is like for an auto mechanic doing a pre-purchase inspection not do drive the car and to demand that the buyer hire a professional driver for that portion of the inspection. Same for the engine (at least a decent look over). Same for any other system on the boat. What now the buyer has to also hire an electronics expert, a plumber/gas fitter, woodworker, canvas/sailmaker, upholstery guy, who else?

PS At $20+ a foot he better climb that mast if he wants my business, otherwise it's not worth more than $10-12/ft to me. Which is actually what I paid since the boat was on the hard, the mast and rigging were next to it and there was no sea trial.
__________________

__________________
Island Time O25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 04:52   #48
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,586
Images: 240
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, lucygw, & Paul Squire.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 07:16   #49
Senior Cruiser
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 5,781
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Island Time O25 View Post
After reading this thread I now understand why your average survey is not worth the paper it is written on. For a surveyor not to go aloft if the mast is on is like for an auto mechanic doing a pre-purchase inspection not do drive the car and to demand that the buyer hire a professional driver for that portion of the inspection. Same for the engine (at least a decent look over). Same for any other system on the boat. What now the buyer has to also hire an electronics expert, a plumber/gas fitter, woodworker, canvas/sailmaker, upholstery guy, who else?



PS At $20+ a foot he better climb that mast if he wants my business, otherwise it's not worth more than $10-12/ft to me. Which is actually what I paid since the boat was on the hard, the mast and rigging were next to it and there was no sea trial.

IMHO, $20/foot won't cover the risk associated with climbing a mast, of unknown pedigree on who knows how old halyards. Then add up all the time spent looking at the boat, travel to and from the boat, time spent generating a report, filing and storing the report for 7 years, etc......

I think you need to think again what sort of hourly wage you want inspecting your boat before you make a statement like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Sailmonkey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 07:50   #50
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,881
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Squire View Post
The vessel's insurance does not cover this activity. One can't get insurance cover for this. If you want the rig inspected aloft, get a professional rigger (e.g.Nance & Underwood) to do this. They have the correct insurance cover.

Paul Squire
Simex International
www.simexmarinesurveyor.com>
I understand most surveyors exclude mechanical, electrical and rigging but claiming the vessel insurance doesn't cover it is a complete joke. If you aren't qualified just say so or include it as an extra and subcontract it out. The only reason I think surveyors get away with this stuff is because people don't buy big boats very often so repeat business isn't a priority.

Side Note: A good idea is to ask for a sample report for a similar boat (both age and type). I got burned recently when I made the poor assumption that the surveyor would take pictures of the issues found and include them in the report. I also may have found his report to be very superficial with many blanket statements that added no value.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 07:57   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,881
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
IMHO, $20/foot won't cover the risk associated with climbing a mast, of unknown pedigree on who knows how old halyards. Then add up all the time spent looking at the boat, travel to and from the boat, time spent generating a report, filing and storing the report for 7 years, etc......

I think you need to think again what sort of hourly wage you want inspecting your boat before you make a statement like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
For a 40' boat that's $800. Travel of more than an hour or so is usually at an extra rate.

No different than a rigger going up on an unknown halyard. There are ways o do it safely. If you aren't competent, why are you taking on the job?

As far as writing and storing the reports: They are mostly form reports where you enter the pertinent data. Saving them for 7yrs is as simple as hitting the save button (probably worth backing up the hard drive once a month).

Most are independent contractors with minimal overhead. 5hrs at the boat and 2-3 putting the report together and that's $100/hr. Using my corporate overhead rate (an independent would be much lower) that works out to around $35/hr. Not bad money.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 08:13   #52
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Boat: Morgan Out Island 41
Posts: 702
Images: 2
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BothFeet View Post
Yesterday in Fort Lauderdale I was aboard for survey of a 45ft Leopard. He said surveyors are forbidden by insurance from going up the mast. Has anyone head or seen this?

Urgent as purchase is on hold!

Can anybody recommend a rigging company who CAN go inspect the mast and rigging in Pompano beach, Fl?

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
I've never yet seen a surveyor go up the mast. If you want a rigging survey you need to get a rigger to do that.
__________________
pcmm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 10:05   #53
Registered User
 
Island Time O25's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,019
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
IMHO, $20/foot won't cover the risk associated with climbing a mast, of unknown pedigree on who knows how old halyards. Then add up all the time spent looking at the boat, travel to and from the boat, time spent generating a report, filing and storing the report for 7 years, etc......

I think you need to think again what sort of hourly wage you want inspecting your boat before you make a statement like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
Considering that small print in surveyor's contract absolves him from about any liability for not found deficiencies, etc. the only two reasons IMO for hiring the so called "certified surveyor" is 1) to satisfy the insurance/bank requirements and 2) use the survey results for negotiating lower price. Other than that any old competent "boatyard guy" could probably do as good of if not better job for a fraction of the cost.

My surveyor who came highly recommended and did 2 surveys for me, with which I was reasonably happy, everything else considered, but still could've done better. Actually my two very knowledgeable marine pros buddies did as good of a job but their opinions would not carry the "official weight" with the seller when haggling over the found deficiencies. The survey paid for itself when the seller took off that much from the asking price. Otherwise both the surveyor and my buddies found the boat to be priced way below it's fair market value for the age and condition she was in. So everyone walked away happy.

All along both the surveyor and my marine pro friends kept saying not to expect a 30+ year old vessel for that price to be perfect. And as long as it did not have major structural issues it would require constant maintenance anyway, as any 30+ year old boat would, and I am glad that I did not get stuck in demanding this or that to be in Bristol shape as it would either lead me not to buy that boat or look for that "perfect" one which I would not be able to afford anyway.

IMO that should be the goal of anyone buying an old boat for short money - no major structural issues and in sailable condition from day 1 and everything else that the boat may need can be worked on at one's own pace.
__________________
Island Time O25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 10:22   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Eastern Caribbean
Boat: Cal 44
Posts: 152
Send a message via ICQ to barboak
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucygw322 View Post
We recently purchased a IP 38 and had an awesome surveyor. Neil Hayes, Bluewater Survey (nhaynes@boatsurveyor.com)out of Charleston, SC. He goes up the mast and traveled to ft. Lauderdale for a survey of IP 45 which we did not purchase thanks to survey by Neil that was so thorough. Neil is fantastic as goes thru every nook.
Phone/Fax (843) 559-2857
email: nhaynes@boatsurveyor.com web page: Boatsurveyor.com
We used Neil a few years back in Brunswick to survey a KP44 that we walked away from after he was done. Have seen good ones and bad ones and he was the best!
__________________
"There was nowhere to go but everywhere,
so just keep on rolling under the stars."
Jack Kerouac, On the Road
barboak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 11:10   #55
Registered User
 
mottseng's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Ontario Canada
Boat: 1985 Canadian Sailcraft CS30
Posts: 368
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

I have two surveys from different people on the same boat. The cost for the surveys were the same. The first one is 3 pages long containing little or no information and in my opinion is garbage. The second one was done by a trained and licences naval architect who is also a professional engineer. This second survey is approx 50 pages long leaving no stone unturned and oh by the way did include going up the mast.

As a professional engineer myself I strongly suggest that you ask for credentials and sample surveys before hiring someone. I would want someone who does a lot more than just go around with a sounding hammer and a moisture meter.

I should mention that although the first survey was garbage the insurance company accepted it. It was done by the seller. I had the second one done to satisfy my concerns.
__________________
mottseng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 17:23   #56
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,461
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

How interesting, and how typical... one one hand we have several respondents who state that no surveyors will go up masts, and on the other hand we have several who report that their surveyors did indeed go up t he mast.

We've only employed three ourselves, and none of them did climb the mast. And in fact, none of those surveys were worth what we paid for them. A whole lot of boiler plate, descriptions of the boat, listings of equipment items and the serial numbers thereof, counting fire extinguishers, etc. These are things which I can do myself with just as much skill as these "professionals". None of them did any serious structural inspections, other than percussive testing of the hulls on the glass boats. That was useful, but the absence of any blistering (on ~10 year old boats) was a convincing visual inspection for me.

I've sold a couple of those boats, and the surveyors who checked them at that time were both more thorough... guess the buyers were cleverer than I in their selections!

When I hear of surveys that include 50 page reports I'm very impressed, and would sure like to employ such a pro if I ever again buy a yacht.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 17:33   #57
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 4,395
Images: 34
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

50 pages, wow, that is excellent. I don't even have 50 things to look at on my boat. Maybe each turnbuckle would get its own page.
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 17:34   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hailey, ID
Boat: Gulf 32 & Nimble 20
Posts: 348
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
I've sold a couple of those boats, and the surveyors who checked them at that time were both more thorough... guess the buyers were cleverer than I in their selections!

When I hear of surveys that include 50 page reports I'm very impressed, and would sure like to employ such a pro if I ever again buy a yacht.
I would REALLY STRONGLY recommend getting some sort of outside input on a surveyor before hiring them. Sample reports help a lot, as you can see what they do document, but even that is hard to tell if it's just full of a lot of boilerplate (as many are) or if there's real information in there. Simply asking on a few forums can be a way to get some names, when the same name comes up with a "yes" a couple of times you are (hopefully) onto someone good.

I have had two surveys done, both times I used surveyors that were recommended by multiple people (2nd time even paid travel and a night's lodging to have someone come from farther away), and both times I was very pleased with the surveys... they were infinitely more detailed and carefully done than existing "sellers" surveys of the same boats.

1st guy found some hidden gems that steered us away from a boat that would have been a disaster, 2nd guy confirmed what I thought I already knew about a reasonably well found boat... YMMV but I considered both of them money very well spent.

Just to finish my ramble, I will also say that the buyer has a certain responsibility in these surveys. If you're there (#1), ask questions, and are engaged the surveyor has a better chance of being engaged as well. And IMO if you show you know the basics and have already inspected the basics on that particular boat, they will skip over the basic stuff and do the more skilled things that the good ones know how to do (and that I don't know how to do). The 2nd surveyor was full of lots of good recommendations about how to fix the problems we found and even what marine service companies might be able to help.

-- Bass
__________________
basssears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 17:44   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hailey, ID
Boat: Gulf 32 & Nimble 20
Posts: 348
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
50 pages, wow, that is excellent. I don't even have 50 things to look at on my boat. Maybe each turnbuckle would get its own page.
Boat we ended up buying had a "sellers" survey already done, 17 pages (12 if you skip table of contents, certification pages etc.).

Survey we had done was 47 pages (44 if you skip TOC and other fluff) and was a work of art.

Granted, that seemed more of a "insurance and valuation" survey, so always best to make sure surveyors know why you're requesting the survey as it does seem to affect how complete they are.

-- Bass
__________________
basssears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-04-2016, 17:49   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Great Lakes
Boat: Mid size sloop rigged
Posts: 182
Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Several years ago I had one surveyor who didn't even come on board, never mind climb the mast, he claimed he had been on board a few years previous.

Fine with me, I was only getting the survey done to satisfy the insurance company and I only put insurance on the boat because the marina demanded proof of insurance or they wouldn't give me a slip.

The guy basically described the boat from the brochure 35 years before. Ford Lehman? But she has a Perkins, whatever.

I had a pretty good idea what was right and wrong with the boat any way. Yacht surveys is a strange one, if they aren't inspecting to a standard, like ABS or Lloyd's, it's a real crap shoot, Canadian and US yachts have so little legislation to inspect against, you're really just getting an opinion from some one who may or may not know much about boats.

It's the insurance company that benefits the most, because they have some one to share the risk with.

If I was getting a survey that I cared about, like if there was significant investment in the boat or a loan involved, I would be pretty careful about researching my surveyor and finding out exactly who I was getting and what standard they were inspecting against.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________

__________________
Ungvar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mast, rigging, sale, survey, surveyor, sails

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Remove, inspect, and reinstall Hood Seafurl 810 AZ-Oldguy Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 12 14-08-2017 10:00
Help me inspect these survey notes please! htx_sailor Monohull Sailboats 34 10-06-2015 05:23
Request to Inspect my new Wiring. Jolly Roger Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 5 23-06-2014 06:09
For Sale: Sails, Sails and More Sails Slainte40 Classifieds Archive 4 23-04-2011 12:59



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:07.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.