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Old 13-04-2016, 13:28   #31
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

I have hired a rigger to do it.

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Old 13-04-2016, 13:55   #32
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

I bought a 12 year old boat 4 mths ago and did my own survey but i did not go up the mast. All the rigging guys will tell you that you need to renew ALL the standing rigging after 10-12 yrs. So i am on my boat now and the rigging is being renewed. There was hardly any point in going up the mast to inspect the rigging when i did the inspection when i knew the time had come to renew the lot.
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Old 13-04-2016, 14:09   #33
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Mine was replaced in 2013 or 14. They used triple-X.

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Old 13-04-2016, 15:19   #34
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

My last occupation was as a self employed home inspector with 20 years experience and over 8000 inspections. If I did not go up on a roof, in a crawl space or in an attic, I wasn't doing my job. Many of my newer competitors would not. Who did a better job?
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Old 13-04-2016, 15:21   #35
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Copy that. If I was a surveyor who did sailboats I would have whatever qualifications required to do it ALL.

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Old 13-04-2016, 15:21   #36
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

"All the rigging guys will tell you that you need to renew ALL the standing rigging after 10-12 yrs. "

I cannot agree with that statement.

Our boat is 22-years old and has been sailed 10,000 miles at sea with eight years in the hot tropical sunshine. Last year we paid two very experienced riggers (Ed has been rigging race and cruise boats for over 30-years) from Downwind Marine (THE place to go for sailboat cruising equipment and information in Southern California) to do a very thorough inspection of our rigging. They found only ONE item to be replaced - the lower toggle for the forestay.

I told them I would rather pay to have all the standing rigging replaced than risk another trip to Mexico with old questionable rigging. After spending four man hours inspecting from top to bottom they found no reason to replace anything except the toggle. And, it wasn't even certain the toggle needed replacement.

After receiving their report I pushed hard as to their degree of confidence. They told me that my rig was so oversized and overspec'ed for our sail plan that it might never need replacement. That is the same thing the North Sails sail designer in Seattle told me when they were designing and testing the trysail and storm jib.

So, in some cases standing rigging will last far longer than 10-years.

this is just my experience with one well built boat - your mileage may differ depending on ???.
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Old 13-04-2016, 15:34   #37
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

A second for Nance and Underwood Rigging Gear | Service | Nance Underwood Rigging - Sails. Not just because they are right across the street from my shop but because they do more rigging than anyone else in Fort Lauderdale and have years of experience. They've been up and down more Leopard sticks in Fort Lauderdale than anyone.

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Old 13-04-2016, 15:37   #38
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Tacoma Sailor,

I am not a rigging expert. i only know what the insurers prefer and what the rigging guys recommend. Sure, if you wish to save some money then don't bother to change it. If it was just me aboard i would probably not bother to change until 15-20 years but since i am sure to have family and friends from time to time i do not wish to run the risk.
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Old 13-04-2016, 16:10   #39
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMetals View Post
I bought a 12 year old boat 4 mths ago and did my own survey but i did not go up the mast. All the rigging guys will tell you that you need to renew ALL the standing rigging after 10-12 yrs. So i am on my boat now and the rigging is being renewed. There was hardly any point in going up the mast to inspect the rigging when i did the inspection when i knew the time had come to renew the lot.
Andrew
And what do the rigging guys sell? There is no hard fast rule in rigging changing. It depends on where you are and how the boat has been used.
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Old 13-04-2016, 16:24   #40
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

TacomaSailor, I had the same experience with mu Tayana. Profession riggers went over everything top to bottom on this oversized 26 year old rigging. Lower staysail stay turnbuckle was galled and wouldn't move so they cut it out and replaced it. Everything else was good to go. Their opinion was that the high quality of the original rig and the sizing for heavy offshore work that went into the original build would last another 15 years. Of course they recommended annual inspections...


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Old 14-04-2016, 09:59   #41
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

The vessel's insurance does not cover this activity. One can't get insurance cover for this. If you want the rig inspected aloft, get a professional rigger (e.g.Nance & Underwood) to do this. They have the correct insurance cover.

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Old 14-04-2016, 11:13   #42
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TacomaSailor View Post
"All the rigging guys will tell you that you need to renew ALL the standing rigging after 10-12 yrs. "

I cannot agree with that statement.

Our boat is 22-years old and has been sailed 10,000 miles at sea with eight years in the hot tropical sunshine. Last year we paid two very experienced riggers (Ed has been rigging race and cruise boats for over 30-years) from Downwind Marine (THE place to go for sailboat cruising equipment and information in Southern California) to do a very thorough inspection of our rigging. They found only ONE item to be replaced - the lower toggle for the forestay.

I told them I would rather pay to have all the standing rigging replaced than risk another trip to Mexico with old questionable rigging. After spending four man hours inspecting from top to bottom they found no reason to replace anything except the toggle. And, it wasn't even certain the toggle needed replacement.

After receiving their report I pushed hard as to their degree of confidence. They told me that my rig was so oversized and overspec'ed for our sail plan that it might never need replacement. That is the same thing the North Sails sail designer in Seattle told me when they were designing and testing the trysail and storm jib.

So, in some cases standing rigging will last far longer than 10-years.

this is just my experience with one well built boat - your mileage may differ depending on ???.
The problem with rigging inspections is they are only superficial.

The only two options to provide certainty as to the condition of rigging is to conduct NDT or load testing. I have yet to see any rigger use either method. Very few have the skills or the facilities to conduct these analyses.

The costs to do either would be similar to replacement. Hence the replace after x years if no other evidence is available recommendations

Also overspecced or over sized rigging provides no guarantee of survivability or load carrying ability. Corrosion and failure occur within a swage or toggle.

A substantial body of engineering evidence, from many safety critical applications, dating back more than 100 years disputes the notion that bigger is better. Particularly where cyclic loads are present.

Did your riggers provide a warranty after inspecting your rigging? If you check the fine print you should see their liability is zero if your rig fails in whole or in part.

I can't imagine any insurer willing to cover a rigger who would provide a warranty as to fitness for purpose.

Verbal statements outside of the report have little engineering or warranty value without evidence.

Having provided engineering evidence in court throughout my career has only confirmed the importance of testing and evidence over adhoc visual inspections.

My wife and I are near completion of standing rigging replacement of our Liberty 458 with all StaLoks.

I have documented the process which is captured in our ships manual. I will also be sectioning all our old swages and crack testing all non wire components. The wire will also be inspected internally. This allows me to prove, or otherwise, my hypothesis on the fitness for purpose of the old rigging.

I have also obtained the lot and manufacturing detail of our new wire. It will be monitored closely. Additionally I am conducting a salt water immersion test of the old and new wire. This will provide me with relative and accelerated evidence of the quality or otherwise of our new wire.

I also have one backstay the PO replaced with StaLoks after an open ocean rigging failure. This will be stripped and inspected for corrosion. Another useful data point.

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Old 14-04-2016, 14:01   #43
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Rigging age is one thing, and the metal becomes brittle with age though it may look fine. I have not actually conducted my own tests on old rigging to confirm this, but I defer to my rigger on that one. Since it is the lower swages that are likely to show corrosion and cracking first, a good scrubbing there and a magnifying glass there should let you know if it is time to replace 'em (aside form the age.) I would consider it highly unlikely you'll find corrosion/cracking up top and not at the deck since water is draining away from the swaging up there. As far as surveyors, I've seen some go up and others say "you'll need to call a rigger to check up there."
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Old 14-04-2016, 14:05   #44
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Squire View Post
The vessel's insurance does not cover this activity. One can't get insurance cover for this. If you want the rig inspected aloft, get a professional rigger (e.g.Nance & Underwood) to do this. They have the correct insurance cover.

Paul Squire
Simex International
www.simexmarinesurveyor.com>
So the vessel's insurance is supposed to cover the surveyor? When the buyer, not the owner initiates the survey? Really? They should be covered by their own professional liability insurance and some form of worker's compensation. That is like a doctor saying to a patient- your health insurance won't cover my malpractice...
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Old 14-04-2016, 14:15   #45
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Re: Since when do surveyors NOT go up the mast and NOT inspect the sails and rigging?

Just curious, how often do they routinely replaced those big old cables that hold up suspension bridges like the Golden Gate (80 years old) or Brooklyn bridge (133 years)? Different material/application/design, etc all have impact.
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