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Old 05-10-2015, 07:58   #31
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Re: psychologically side effects of strong & fast boats...

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Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
...
What kind of affect (as a kind of "environment") can have a strong and fast boat ? E.g. as noticed by "Steady Hand" it all had been big and powerful boats. Thats interesting to mention, indeed.

The Condor 40 was built as a pure racing mashine, going over 20 knots easily. Not that kind of carbon racers we know nowadays, but in the 80th it was that standard. And the boat was far ahead its time.

The C40 was designed and constructed by Phil Herting and Mike Price, two very smart guys. Both still active in "carbon building" and "racing boats".
..

So clearly we have a very strong, powerfully boat, easily going >20 knots. ..


The boat is not overpowered, I would say... The half load displacement is 3.6 tons, with a mast of 16.7 meters (54'8'' above water line) and a sail area of 71.44 m2 at a waterline of 36'8'' (total length: 41'7'') and overall beam of 28'2''.
The buoyancy of a C40 isnt very high, but typically of that time: 160 % Ama/Aka Displacement. I think the range of boats built in the 80th had been something between 150-180% so I was told.

With other words: a skipper who knows all this might get the feeling to be on board of a very safely, strong built and fast boat. Even possible to handle it single-handed. And the boat will do its job for him.

Such racing boats might become a trap, in the sense of:
"A skipper might feel himself be lulled into a false sense of security."

These boats are demanding; they require a 100% fitness, physically and menthally... beside the knowledge and experience.

Spontaneously it remembers me a wonderful video documenting a manoever of one of the big professionals in sail racing, the French solo racer Yann Guichard on the 40 meter Maxi Trimaran Spindrift.

..

going offshore on an OSTAR racing Trimaran in a storm during winter... is nothing for an amateur sailor and unexperienced crew.
Well, yes and no

I agree that is a powerful boat that to be sailed fast needs a very experienced sailor but because it can fly a lot of sail (and it is powerful) it has to be a very stiff boat, a boat that has a lot more stability then a similar sized trimaran not designed to race.

Stability is safety if sail power is used conservatively and on this case we can see on the movie that the boat is under-powered for the conditions. So, the stability will be huge and in fact on the video we can see that the boat is not in danger, at least in what concerns stability.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:22   #32
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

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Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
And it only takes one crew member that has given up, depending on the relationships, to force abandonment. The same crew might pull it together, if rescue were not an option.

The funny thing I have found is that if I'm working or doing resuce (I've done high angle stuff) I am much more willing to endure discomfort and even fear without even noticing it, than I am if I'm just out on holiday. My brain processes it very differently, because there is a reason to be there.
Interesting points.

Skipper and crew morale can make challenges either endurable or unbearable.

-------------

While I can imagine sailing in tropical stormy weather, in squalls to gales, and have been offshore in strong winds and big seas, on the fringe of a named tropical storm, I cannot imagine wanting to join a boat going offshore in 30 to 20 degree winter weather with a forecasted winter storm approaching, as happened to at least two of the boats in the storm mentioned at top incident .

I just don't see myself agreeing to do that, as intuitively it seems wrong to me, like putting ones hand through the bars of a cage and into the mouth of a powerful, dangerous, merciless, wild tiger.
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Old 05-10-2015, 09:06   #33
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

They only print the dumbed down highlights in the news. We look for important detail that most others do not care about. Perhaps there were injuries, broken steering, illness, electrical failure, pump failure??? Sometimes, the skipper has just had enough and calls a mayday. The coast guard's job is to rescue, not to question, resupply, or repair. I've read of occasional instances where they do go the extra effort to save the vessel.
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Old 05-10-2015, 09:28   #34
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

I don't see a sail problem. Headsail is furled, mainsail appears to be tied to the boom. Awful nice boat to throw away.
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:08   #35
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Skip Jayr--A few years ago there was a CF member who was pretty quick to criticize sailors who abandoned boats. We haven't heard much from him since he abandoned his own boat.
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:20   #36
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Looks like the crew decided multi-hulls just weren't their thing.
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:43   #37
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Ahh! This reminds me of the huge thread about whether to tell people to "not go". People can get in trouble. They can get in over their heads. Boats seem to manage better than the sailors. But none of us were there when it was happening, and I for one, would not over-judge the situation and demean the skipper and crew.

Endless vomiting actually can kill you. And it can paralyze you mentally and emotionally. I don't know if they were suffering from that but there is a reason why I carry rectal anti-emetics - because sometimes the vomiting keeps you from being able to take the oral medication.

I get seasick and I hate it. I don't get it all the time, in fact usually not, but it is pure hell when it happens. I managed to go a lot of miles offshore but there were a couple of passages I hated. I actually found my decision-making skills were challenged. It can be hard to force yourself down in the engine compartment to deal with a problem. And if you are the skipper and OK, you may feel obliged to help a scared and seasick crew who got in over their head.

But who knows what really happened? Easy to second-guess from our cozy arm chairs and cabins.
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:53   #38
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form of presentation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Skip Jayr--A few years ago there was a CF member who was pretty quick to criticize sailors who abandoned boats. We haven't heard much from him since he abandoned his own boat.
So long a boat must not be given up, there is no reason to leave a boat. Especially not a Trimaran which works like a life raft itself.... but even this is not the case: the boat hasnt capsized.

The point is not to critisze and judge about a skipper, the point is to understand, and to learn from.

It was not my boat, so I dont care about. Boats are only material of expoy, wood, foam, steel... just a piece of material. Dont care about. But I like to learn for my own future, too.

We humans are born with senses, donradcliffe. That means: I see what I see, I read what I read, and I hear what I hear. From there thinking starts. I am not a wizzard looking in the glas bowl.

I had on my own critical situations, e.g. I had to abandon a trip from Malta to Tunesia... because I had a guy on board who had backbone problems and we had to turn back to Sicily where he got medical treatment. Strait of Sicily can be very tough in winter. So no risk taking.

No doubts, there are reasons to abandon a ship, to abandon a sailing trip or a record attempt.

But what I see here is: there is floating an "intact boat", just less than 60 nautical miles front cost. This boat easily can go 10 knots, so the distance isnt something of 20 hours for a tiny boat with 3 knots speed. Its just 5-6 hours sailing roughly.

No other chance than calling the heli with an alternative to overcome this short time of period ?

I dont judge, but yes... critics are allowed to address questions. And the question are allowed to ask:

  1. Could have done a skipper his job well to avoid coming into such a sitation ?
  2. Could have done a skipper a better job being in this situation to avoid the abandoning of the ship ? (as jumping into cold water in February is a tremendously risk on its own)
Naturally in such a big forum I like to provoke little bit with my tone, e.g. using a "shocking headline", otherwise it might be overseen... so forgive me that kind of " theatric".

I think, with my questions I am not wrong. Read my first post. I asked: "Am I seeing right and understand what I see ?"


Nothing more and nothing less.
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:58   #39
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
Endless vomiting actually can kill you. And it can paralyze you mentally and emotionally. I don't know if they were suffering from that but there is a reason why I carry rectal anti-emetics - because sometimes the vomiting keeps you from being able to take the oral medication.
Ineresting aspect.... good point.

Havent thought yet about to "fine tune" the first aid kit that way. Will keep it in mind.
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:36   #40
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Maritime Casuality Report...

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
But who knows what really happened? Easy to second-guess from our cozy arm chairs and cabins.
I dont know where you all live... maybe good to give a little insight into the legal aspects.

In Germany where I live, every sea accident of a German boat (a boat under German flag) even being in overseas, is analysed by German investigation forces. It is the so called "Federal Bureau of Maritime Casualty Investigation". They operate worldwide to analyse all kind of sea accidents with boats under German flag.

Within the German territorial waters this bureau acts regardless of the flag(s) of the ship(s) involved. Every kind of sea accident is analysed.

This institution is a Federal Higher Authority subordinated to the German Federal Ministry of Transport and Digital Infrastructure.

So in the case of a German yacht anwhere in the world under German flag is involved in any form of accident, this burea comes into action. There are highly specialists to analyse in details the "reasons behind the accident".

The bureau writes a deatilled "Maritime Casuality Report"... after months of investigations. And this report is being published. To give skippers, instructors, engineers, lawyers etc. ... the chance to learn from any kind of accidents.

The archive of these reports you find here, in ENG as PDF downloads. Good material to study:
Bundesstelle für Seeunfalluntersuchung - Publications

These reports are published as short notice in Germany for yacht skippers regularly in the edition "(Nautical) News for Seafarer" - weekly - so we get informed about such kind of accidents.



It is a very normal procedure in my country to discuss such accidents, steadily. We skippers are trimmed heavily to take notice of such accidents to learn from.

I had to spend hours in the nautical seafarer school of Hanseatic City Hamburg listening to the Professors who explained the different cases in details, under legal aspect, technical aspects and tradition of good seamanship.

Not enough this bureau and their investigation forces have huge power.

From the result of the maritime casuality report the International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea (which has its global headquarter in my city too) is called and there it is decided basically, if the skipper shall be pulled front court and be charged (for a crime).

Two main criterias are relevant which are defined by the specific laws of "criminal code". Simply asking: Did the skipper...

(A) act negligently ?
(B) act grossly negligently ?

Depending on the individually maritime report and the judges of this tribunal in worst case, such a skipper can loose all his qualifications / captain's patents and might be banned for rest of his live no more being able/allowed to overtake any skipper job anymore.

Beside these consequences there are some other negative side effects possible, e.g. that casualities (injured persons) being involved in such an accident might bring the skipper front "private court" to demand compensation.

A skipper could be ruined for rest of his life as a result of such a report. E.g. the owner of the yacht could demand compensation in fully size for the loss of the boat... or even the insurance demands pay back. Bankrupcy in consequences for the skipper as there does not exist any insurance to cover "gross negligently actions".

Not many know (even not many German skippers): A skipper on a yacht under German flag has to do a mandatory report by himself to the Federal Bureau of Maritime Casualty Investigation after he was involved in a sea accident. Its not just waiting till he is being asked by water police etc.... Its a highly duty to guarantee, that this case of accident can be analysed and the procedure as described upper starts again...

Its all about learning for and to make seafarership and yachting more safely.

So maybe you might understand little bit "my background" why I am interested in such cases. :-)

Does exist in USA an officially report about this case ? It should like we know it to handle in Germany.
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:37   #41
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

The USCG ain't Domino's Pizza, I don't think they'll shop around and deliver storm sails on request, even if you tip them well.


Then too, if the wx is rough the crew may not want to go forward to RIG the sails, or there may be other complications, that make them feel going up to rig new sails could endanger them and put them overboard. Hey, maybe on guy had a badly sprained ankle and another had busted ribs. The Nooze never quite gets all the information right.
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Old 05-10-2015, 12:10   #42
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

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The USCG ain't Domino's Pizza, I don't think they'll shop around and deliver storm sails on request, even if you tip them well.


Then too, if the wx is rough the crew may not want to go forward to RIG the sails, or there may be other complications, that make them feel going up to rig new sails could endanger them and put them overboard. Hey, maybe on guy had a badly sprained ankle and another had busted ribs. The Nooze never quite gets all the information right.
Except that on the case of the German Bavaria we do have information: The guys from the coast guard on the rib comment, it seems to me with some surprise, that they are sailing, having the engine working (I guess they thought they did not have an operational engine).

On the information given from the Coast Guard they say the reasons that lead to the Mayday: The sail was shredded (it seems to me the front sail) and the two people aboard did not manage to steer the boat due to a F9 wind and bad seas.

"L’imbarcazione aveva entrambe le vele strappate e le due persone a bordo non riuscivano a governarla a causa del vento forza nove da Nord-Est e mare molto grosso."

Regarding injuries that would have prevented them to sail the boat certainly would have been referred as a motive for the rescue or would have been refereed on the information provided by the coast guard but they only say that the two couple (62 and 65 years old) were taken to the hospital for a overall check up.

"All’arrivo a terra i due austriaci sono stati affidati al 118 che li ha portati in ospedale per un controllo generale."
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Old 05-10-2015, 13:56   #43
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

As I remember the story on this tri the decision to abandon was made in light of a few critical issues and the possibility of danger.

1) the drogue had been deployed but disintegrated and was no longer serviceable
2) under bare poles the vessel was surfing down 15m waves at over 15kn, and close to out of control
3) a young child was aboard
4) because of the direction of the storm she was quickly going to be out of range of helicopter rescue.
5) they were looking at days of the storm without the possibility of help

Frankly in these conditions I am not going to second guess the decision to evacuate. A major piece of critical safety gear (the drogue) had already failed, reducing the ability of the boat to safely cope in the conditions. The waves were large enough to pose a serious threat to the vessel, and pitch poling was a real threat when surfing at such high speeds.

It might have been possible to survive, heck I wouldn't be surprised if the vessel did survive intact. But the first responsibility of the skipper is to the safety of the crew, and if the skipper felt the vessel as equipped could not safely continue asking for rescue was the right decision.

I don't an inquest was held, but sure there are some serious questions I would like answered...

1) was the drogue in reasonable shape? I.e. Was it brand new and properly sized or a 30 year old relic rotten from decades in the bilge? I don't know
2) was there a reasonable way to improvise a drogue? No clue. Maybe, maybe not.
3) did the crew have survival suits suitable for the weather?
4) given the direction of travel were they being blown towards or away from potential rescue sites?

Frankly I can only imagining that abandoning a boathad to be one of the most difficult decisions a skipper can make. I have never needed to, and hope I never have to. But I sincerely hope that were I in a similar position I would be willing to if the alternative was to risk the lives of the people on board.
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Old 05-10-2015, 14:13   #44
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

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I don't an inquest was held, but sure there are some serious questions I would like answered...

1) was the drogue in reasonable shape? I.e. Was it brand new and properly sized or a 30 year old relic rotten from decades in the bilge? I don't know
2) was there a reasonable way to improvise a drogue? No clue. Maybe, maybe not.
3) did the crew have survival suits suitable for the weather?
4) given the direction of travel were they being blown towards or away from potential rescue sites?

Frankly I can only imagining that abandoning a boathad to be one of the most difficult decisions a skipper can make. I have never needed to, and hope I never have to. But I sincerely hope that were I in a similar position I would be willing to if the alternative was to risk the lives of the people on board.
And number 5: They took a young child with them?
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Old 05-10-2015, 14:15   #45
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Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

I was in a helicopter searching for and finding a capsized 27' catamaran powerboat 12 miles off the west coast of NZ. We called in the winch equiped rescue chopper which was also searching. The 4 powerboat crew were standing on the upturned vessel. The rescue helicopter instructed the boat crew, with a PA, to one at a time jump into the sea and get away from the boat before a rescuer was winched down to strap on and winch up each crew member in turn.
That way the winch cable is away from the vessel to avoid tangling on it. Also the downdraft from the rescue helicopter is away from the vessel in distress.



I can only assume that with the trimaran under discussion, the crew wanted to be rescued for whatever reason and the Coast Gaurd carried out that rescue correctly. Jumping into the sea would most likely have been at the instruction of the CG. Otherwise the winch cable could tangle in the tri's rigging and the downdraft could spin the tri around if the rescue helicopter were directly overhead.


The CG would have been obliged to carry out the rescue. If they had said "you guys are OK just tough it out", you can imagine the outcome if they were later lost at sea.
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