Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-10-2015, 17:03   #16
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
Well, there's the possibility that they're not very good sailors, lots of people buy more boat than they can handle. You see it all the time on this forum, and its encouraged by the cruising community, buy the biggest boat you can afford because its a symbol of success.
Aha... now I understand why there exist "BoatPorn", right ?? :-) haha...
__________________

__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 17:05   #17
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 4,379
Images: 34
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
Hey, Hoh !!!

Okeys, Okeys... I didnt want bother anybody or let feel somebody beinb bored.

But I am new here on the forum (and I had no idea where to search). Sorry.... I feel guilty :-) hehe...

I think, its nothing bad to discuss again and again "sea rescues". Beginners and experienced ones can learn a lot, isnt ?? :-)

At least I got such "cases" again and again in my own sailing education, even old ones... and I did it in sail academy with my students, as I am sail instructor on my own.

Nothing wrong to remember "bad examples" and learn from, right ? :-)
True, and surely there are important lessons to learn here. Knowing the original circumstances, condition of crew, and sea conditions and weather predictions are all key here. It APPEARS poor decisions and poor choices were made in leading up to the rescue, but more info than just the video is needed.
__________________

__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 17:07   #18
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
found the original thread discussing this boats loss, the boat, the crew, the storm....
Another rescue in USA-Trio
Tks... so I will do first my home work reading it... before I give another comment.
__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 17:12   #19
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
True, and surely there are important lessons to learn here. Knowing the original circumstances, condition of crew, and sea conditions and weather predictions are all key here. It APPEARS poor decisions and poor choices were made in leading up to the rescue, but more info than just the video is needed.
Thats why I ended the first post with a "question mark" being aware of that.

Something heavily with the crew must have gone wrong, indeed. Poor boat having paid the prize for. So pitty as only 21 Condor40 had been built in total. One less.

Was it the boat which was offered on Youtube for a "business partnership" couple of years ago (in 2012) laying on the Bahamas ?
__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 17:56   #20
Registered User
 
Steady Hand's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Crewing All of 2017 Available Globally
Boat: OPB = Crewing in 2017
Posts: 4,851
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
Hey, Hoh !!!

Okeys, Okeys... I didnt want bother anybody or let feel somebody beinb bored.

But I am new here on the forum (and I had no idea where to search). Sorry.... I feel guilty :-) hehe...

I think, its nothing bad to discuss again and again "sea rescues". Beginners and experienced ones can learn a lot, isnt ?? :-)

At least I got such "cases" again and again in my own sailing education, even old ones... and I did it in sail academy with my students, as I am sail instructor on my own.

Nothing wrong to remember "bad examples" and learn from, right ? :-)
Howdy Skip!

New here? Welcome Aboard CF!

What follows is written in a truly friendly tone of voice, no sarcasm.

I see nothing wrong with discussing the incident, even if it occurred long ago. I think discussions like this can help people learn about mistakes people make and things to avoid.

Sometimes having some time from the incident allows one to learn new things about it. In this case, the linked thread I posted (link) above has an anecdote of a CF member who met the skipper of the abandoned Condor, and he recounts some of the conversation and reasons the skipper of that boat gave for his call for help.

_______________

My View of Trimarans (short version):

I see you like trimarans.
So do I (but I don't own one, and I surely don't claim to be an expert on them). I have always found them interesting as a type of boat, and have several times mentioned them favorably (e.g. Farrier boats, Dragonfly) here on this forum for SOME sailors and some uses.

Would I own one? Sure!
Would I love to sail them? Yes!
Would I be careful with the condition of the boat, crew, and carefully consider the weather conditions for the sailing on any day I chose to sail (multi or mono boat)? Yes, most definitely!

But, a high performance Trimaran would not be my first choice of a type of boat for long-distance blue-water cruising with a shorthanded inexperienced amateur crew. I would prefer something else. I have reasons, based on a personal experience during an offshore race.
___________

What about this example (the Condor in the video)?

Would I take a high-performance Trimaran (or Gunboat or any boat) out in 20 degree Fahrenheit winter weather, offshore, going off a notoriously dangerous coastline, when there is a predicted winter storm offshore?

No.

I would consider that a foolish thing to do, even if I had confidence in my own sailing skills, confidence in my own boat condition, and confidence in my crew.
____________

This particular rescue incident was one of THREE boats lost in that same "storm" period. All three boats were abandoned. One boat "Rainmaker" was a $2.5 Million brand new boat with professional sailors aboard. You can read about that here on CF too, as it was discussed by many people in a very long discussion thread. GUNBOAT Dismasting

The third boat lost was a large monohull, that had a two man crew (one novice).

In all cases, the boats were lost after a very short time after leaving a safe harbor. As I recall, within 24-48 hours or so of leaving their harbor. The water temp was low, the air temp was low too.

In my view, after reading the accounts of how all three were lost, I think the boat skippers had overconfidence in their own ability to go fast to outrun an approaching (predicted) storm or in their own boat to survive in the storm conditions or in themselves as sailors or their ability to cope with the challenges of a boat in a winter storm.
_______________________

Skip,

Since you are new to this forum, let me mention a few things you might miss but that could help you more enjoy your time here:

There is an amazing amount of shared knowledge found in the thousands of threads on this forum. If one has a common question, the answers are usually there, often with different possible solutions. The trick is finding those threads and answers as they can be "lost" in the many threads, which are often not titled well.

Here are my favorite Tips for newcomers to this forum:

WIKI
Take a look at the Cruising WIKI that is found via the tab up on the top menu bar of the forum. It has a LOT of information in it you might find fun, interesting, or helpful.
____________

Looking for Quick Answers?

This is the best and fastest method I have found to the answers I seek here.
Since you are relatively new to the forum, here is my favorite friendly forum search tip: Look at the menu bar on the forum pages for the drop down "Search" menu. Click on that to drop down a list of search functions. From that drop down menu select the GOOGLE CUSTOM search feature (the second box down) and then enter several different descriptive or key terms for your topic of interest. That will do a Custom google search of ONLY this site and it is likely to find answers to your questions or results for you. Note: this is VERY different from using the regular forum search box or field (which I never use because of poor search results). Also note, this is NOT found if you use the CF mobile app. It IS found if you use a web browser such as Safari, IE, Firefox, etc.

Note: The ordinary "search" field on this forum has yielded less helpful results for me when I perform searches. That is why I prefer and suggest the use of the alternative "Google Custom Search" instead. I see a very clear and big difference and find the Google Custom Search much easier for scanning (with my eyes) threads for relevant comments and information.
__________________
Ahoy All Sailors! Need experienced crew for a passage or delivery in Atlantic, Pacific, Caribbean, Med, PNW, ICW, coastal or across an ocean anytime in 2017? I am available on 24hr notice. See my CF Profile "About Me" page for details. Happy to lend a hand!
Steady Hand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 18:49   #21
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: between the devil and the deep blue sea
Boat: a sailing boat
Posts: 17,314
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

A boat. A bandoned.

I do not know if the boat was OK or not but I remember watching a bunch of "viking" sailors abandoning a similarly OK looking Swan not too long ago.

We never know what the story was.

I have that sad feeling that we will see more and more of these. This year alone there will be well over 300 boats living from Las Palmas alone. Let's not guess how many of their crews are up to the job.

b.
__________________
barnakiel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 19:04   #22
Registered User
 
Stu Jackson's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 6,385
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Many thanks to Steady Hand for doing a lot of the heavy lifting and for being so patient and helpful to all.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Cowichan Bay, BC, (Maple Bay Marina) SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
Stu Jackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 19:21   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 258
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamilyVan View Post
I'm not looking for a fight here, one guy commiting fraud, sure, but 4 guys conspiring? Its just my opinion that's all not an attack.

I have a little bit of insight into what people with an injured psyche are capable of on the water.

Some of that insight I got during my 13 years in the Coast Guard. 9 of those years as a Rescue Specialist/SAR Tech. If you're not familiar with the term, those are the guys who willingly insert themselves into storms, sinking and burning vessels and rocky ice covered shore lines to provide emergency medical care, stabilise the situation and save peoples lives.



Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
Well done, Family Man.
__________________
paxfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2015, 19:41   #24
Registered User
 
FamilyVan's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,779
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by paxfish View Post
Well done, Family Man.
Actually, it was kind of a crappy job. Cold, dangerous and away from home a lot. I don't really recommend it as a line of work.

Surprisingly few people that I dealt with in those years were foolish people. Mostly they were people who got in a little over their heads by a series of poor decisions or bad luck.

I have a lot of empathy for the ship wrecked sailor, even if they were arrogant going into the situation, most were quite humble by the time they were rescued.

I never once participated in a call where I thought the people were foolish or lazy for calling for help, but there were several occasions when I thought to myself "why didn't these people ask for help sooner?"

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
FamilyVan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 07:09   #25
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
psychologically side effects of strong & fast boats...

Tks for the informations about using "Google Search" in this forum, Steady Hand. :-)

Back to the thematic to learn from... and some thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
In my view, after reading the accounts of how all three were lost, I think the boat skippers had overconfidence in their own ability to go fast to outrun an approaching (predicted) storm or in their own boat to survive in the storm conditions or in themselves as sailors or their ability to cope with the challenges of a boat in a winter storm.
This is a very interesting aspect. Let me assume, that we humans are "inter-acting" beings. concisouly and unconciously acting and reacting.

By modern behaviour sciences (e.g. brain scan studies) we know, that the brain is an "individual organ" following own rules. We pretend to think that we control it, but so it is not. The brain thinks much quicker unconciously and all what we notice as thoughts, swaps onto the surface of conciousness. Tricky trap... :-)

Environments whatever kind of have a big impact on us humans. We just are not doing and acting, we are "being made". Some genes even are triggered by environmental conditions to start specific programmes of thinking/feeling and acting. Sounds scary, hm ? :-)

What kind of affect (as a kind of "environment") can have a strong and fast boat ? E.g. as noticed by "Steady Hand" it all had been big and powerful boats. Thats interesting to mention, indeed.

The Condor 40 was built as a pure racing mashine, going over 20 knots easily. Not that kind of carbon racers we know nowadays, but in the 80th it was that standard. And the boat was far ahead its time.

The C40 was designed and constructed by Phil Herting and Mike Price, two very smart guys. Both still active in "carbon building" and "racing boats".

I dont go into the details how they built the boat, but they designed the biggest size (by parameters) for the OSTAR single handed Transatlantic race, very professionally, even taking advice by Dick Newick, Bruce Farr and John Shuttleworth.

Not many know, but the C40 even was designed for the Formula 40 Trimaran class which came up that time... Unluckily none of the Condors (in totally 21 had been built) have been equipped with a wing rotation mast, as the boat was built for, too for participating in the Formula 40 class. (Rec.: If you are interested to know more about this class, pls come over to the BoatDesign Forum: "The Future of Formula 40 Trimarans" going there a lively discussion about the F40s)

So clearly we have a very strong, powerfully boat, easily going >20 knots. Rarely we'd see nowadays "Cruising Trimarans" coming into action like this boat... as this beautifully snap by John Payne is documenting (during the Fort Lauderdale to Key West Race in January 2008).


The boat is not overpowered, I would say... The half load displacement is 3.6 tons, with a mast of 16.7 meters (54'8'' above water line) and a sail area of 71.44 m2 at a waterline of 36'8'' (total length: 41'7'') and overall beam of 28'2''.
The buoyancy of a C40 isnt very high, but typically of that time: 160 % Ama/Aka Displacement. I think the range of boats built in the 80th had been something between 150-180% so I was told.

With other words: a skipper who knows all this might get the feeling to be on board of a very safely, strong built and fast boat. Even possible to handle it single-handed. And the boat will do its job for him.

Such racing boats might become a trap, in the sense of:
"A skipper might feel himself be lulled into a false sense of security."

These boats are demanding; they require a 100% fitness, physically and menthally... beside the knowledge and experience.

Spontaneously it remembers me a wonderful video documenting a manoever of one of the big professionals in sail racing, the French solo racer Yann Guichard on the 40 meter Maxi Trimaran Spindrift.

Yann Guichard
demonstrates a reefing manoever on his monster mashine, step-by-step. It is very impressive as I see it to learn from... for any powerfully Trimaran or boat of smaller size. The video is with ENG subtitles. A teachable (and enjoyably) lesson...



Yann Guichard has biggest respect for the power of this boat, and he is clearly aware about that he cannot allow himself one single mistake.
I like it a lot how this white beardy guy takes this challenge to prepare and train himself for a solo transatlantic race. (Rec.: The video was shooted in Sept. '14, and it shows a training unit for the upcoming Route du Rhum (started in Nov 2014).)

I think, all skippers who like to sail demanding Tris in difficult conditions should be very sensitive caring for their own security and boat as we can see in this vid. Having a clear step-by-step plan in mind for every kind of manoever. Kind of "check lists" as we know it from pilots of bigger airplanes.

Yes, I know... its an extreme example what we see on board of Spindrift. Maybe too extreme for a "hobby sailor". But even on a "small Condor 40" it needs highest focus, concentration, and long, long pre-planning going offshore in February - even calculating the "worst case" to keep everything on the safe side.

As Steady Hand said, going offshore on an OSTAR racing Trimaran in a storm during winter... is nothing for an amateur sailor and unexperienced crew.
__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 07:15   #26
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
I have that sad feeling that we will see more and more of these. This year alone there will be well over 300 boats living from Las Palmas alone. Let's not guess how many of their crews are up to the job.
Barnakiel, what you mean with that ?? Do you mean the ARC (Atlantic Ralley for Cruisers) ?



The organizers doing a great job (since more than 20 years) to keep everything safely for the fleet sailing cross the Atlantic into the Carribenas...

The crews must participate in "safety trainings" etc. ... and all boats are checked by a jury to fulfill all safetyness standards.

I dont see a big chance for "mad crazy risk takers" to participate in the ARC. Isnt ?
__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 07:23   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Carolina
Boat: 44 footer
Posts: 923
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

I don't think it was insurance fraud... They were looking for crew, and I thought about going with them. Trio was for sale locally a few months prior, and I had done a walk through of her.

Beaufort NC to Pensacola FL -Crew Opportunity
__________________
Zach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 07:30   #28
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,332
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Seas do not look that bad nor the winds. Donor see breaking seas and virtually no white caps. Looks like another case of calling the CG and abandoning a boat cause things aren't going perfectly.
And it only takes one crew member that has given up, depending on the relationships, to force abandonment. The same crew might pull it together, if rescue were not an option.

The funny thing I have found is that if I'm working or doing resuce (I've done high angle stuff) I am much more willing to endure discomfort and even fear without even noticing it, than I am if I'm just out on holiday. My brain processes it very differently, because there is a reason to be there.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 07:32   #29
Registered User

Join Date: May 2013
Location: Mystic
Boat: Sabre 38 mkII
Posts: 261
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

There is a gap between learning from the mistakes of others and throwing the others under a bus... I suggest the former path.
__________________
Mystic38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2015, 07:36   #30
Registered User
 
Polux's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Portugal/Med
Boat: Comet 41s
Posts: 5,763
Re: Shocking video from coast guard: abandoning a 40 ft. Tri because of damaged sails

I don't see nothing special about it, I mean abandoning a boat that is not sinking, that is common practice these days where boats, even modern mass production boats, can take a lot more than the majority of the skippers.

A mayday should be used only in case of a life-threatening emergency when to abandon the boat is a necessity, that means when the boat is sinking or in imminent danger. Today most maydays are called not because the boat is in imminent danger but because the crews are frightened, tired and have too much of bad weather. It is easy: you pull the a button on the EPIRB, help shows up and hopefully the insurance will pay for the boat and there is nothing to pay in what regards the rescue.

One of the last, some days ago on a med with a couple over 60 years:


They were going from Sardinia to Minorca and were at 20k from the coast. For what I understood the engine worked, the genoa was damaged and the mainsail intact. The call was made because they had difficulty in steering the boat but I don't see nobody at wheel and difficulty is expected with this kind of sea that was previewed anyway.

Look at that dinghy on davits...on a 37ft Bavaria!!!!
Some time after the boat made it safely to the shore...alone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=6&v=P8wos0lVRaA
__________________

Polux is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail, sails

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shocking Experience Raising Anchor over40pirate General Sailing Forum 24 21-02-2011 08:04
Tri-vial Tri-maran Questions brak Multihull Sailboats 5 08-06-2010 16:54
For Sale: Sails, Sails, Sails - Sydney, Australia ribbony Classifieds Archive 6 22-02-2010 20:28
German Coast Guard Mayday Video jim_thomsen Off Topic Forum 9 09-11-2009 08:08
Sails, Sails, Sails... for sale? Jack Long General Sailing Forum 5 14-08-2008 00:41



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 15:49.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.