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Old 07-02-2008, 04:50   #46
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Thank you Dave (Maxing Out). Your practical solutions and experience at least give us something to balance the rest out. The US Coastgaurd are very strong in their view of anchors but I think these comments are all about mono's.
I like Dana's slow down approach in poor weather allowing a downwind course to be set but when as it gets worse your approach seems to be the best option. Clearly the mechanincs and the geometry must be done properly and tested in post storm conditions of wind and waves. The books all talk about trailing drogues a wave length behind as the best way to reduce loads. A multi element drogue of adequate length does that but also adds weight. Still worrying but I'll go with that for now.
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Old 11-02-2008, 17:50   #47
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On Maxingout's (captain Dave) website is a great podcast about his use of drogues, parachute sea anchors, or seeking shelter options.

http://www.maxingout.com/Podcasts/Po...rfectStorm.mp3

I hope he does not mind me posting a link here.

I found it to be very informative and entertaining.

Thanks Dave!
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Old 12-02-2008, 03:29   #48
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Just had a look. The 'Ressurecting Exit Only' shows another keel profile I wanted to see. Prouts, I believe, had a long rectangular box keel that also served as fresh water tanks. Useful and forgiving. The Priviledge 39 keels are a little more sensitive and draft hungry but give a better windward performance I'm sure. The Mahe 36 is much more of a vertical fin, almost deeper than long. Depends how you want to cut your performance for the sake of draft.
She does look damn good for the miles she's done.
Is it cheeky to ask how much she's worth compared to what you paid for a brand new boat then, or to replace now.
When I stop cruising I'll be headed for a retirement home. How much will I have left?
The Prout guide price seems to come off the original catalogue. They fetch the same number as the original owner paid for them. Does this start to hold good after the first three years or so?
Sorry. Nothing to do with Sea Anchors, I've taken that on board.
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Old 12-02-2008, 03:45   #49
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For some more real life para and drouge experience - go to

KatieKat ParaAnchor Index

which is some info by a seawind 1000 owner (hi Joe)
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Old 12-02-2008, 08:49   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxingout View Post
After we deployed the chute, we wondered if the storm had somehow abated. The next day we talked to a container ship that had a seasick crew on board and they asked us what the heck we were doing out there in the storm. They had reduced their speed in the storm to a level that just gave them steerage to keep their bows into the seas. In the same storm, a ship dumped a bunch of containers into the sea - around 15 - if I recall correctly.

I've heard all the arguments, and that's all they are, arguments. Experience is what counts.
Some of the arguments might be based on a collection of many other's experiences. When you used the parachute, were the waves breaking much? Did the waves break over the front of your boat? It seems that the breaking wave situation is where the series drogue comes into play.

When do you decide to use the drogue over the parachute?
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Old 12-02-2008, 09:40   #51
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JZK, both a good series drogue and good para-anchor are intended to deal with conditions up to, and including huge breaking seas. There is (as this thread points out) a huge debate about which is preferable. Some believe that a cat is best to be kept moving forward, while others suggest that the risks created in flooding the relatively huge cockpit in a crusing cat weigh heavily in favour of the para-anchor. In effect, you want to take the occasional breaking seas over the bows rather than the stern.

Consideration also has to be given to the amount of sea-room that you have and to the effect of current: with a properly deployed sea-anchor, it is the current (plus of course the wind) and not the waves that will largely determine your boats 'progress' . While counterintuitive, the waves themselves do not move your boat backwards as physics (and tank experiments) have proven that the water in a non-breaking wave is not moving forward, but rather up and down. A properly designed sea-anchor will (subject to current and to a lesser extent wind) cause the vessel to remain virtually stationary.

Brad
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Old 12-02-2008, 10:05   #52
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Good thread... I'm learning a lot! Thanks, guys.
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Old 12-02-2008, 15:33   #53
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Oh - and if you are really interested in this topic, get Victor Shanes Book - Drag Device Database
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Old 13-02-2008, 03:20   #54
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Excerpted from Victor Shane's "Drag Device Data Base” website
drag device data base

Specifically:
news

EMERGING PATTERNS?
NYLON 3-STRAND: The use of 3-strand rope for tether or towline is now discouraged. 3-Strand nylon will try to unlay and torque (spin) under load, leading to hockles and/or stress points that can fail. It may even deform under extreme dynamic loading as the force tries to travel the full length of the rode at the same time that the coil is trying to unlay (untwist). The solution would be to opt for a neutral (no-torque) nylon braid instead.

AVOIDING HIGHLY LOCALIZED BOUNDARY CONDITIONS: Would you park your car in the middle of a narrow battle zone, with bullets whizzing by and mortar shells exploding all around? There may be a moral in this for the mariner because sometimes it is possible to sail out of narrow “battle zones” in a matter of hours; or better yet, avoid them altogether. If the choice were between deploying a sea anchor in shallow water, say, over the Cortez Bank, or in deep water only 10 miles away, which would you choose? We have a number of files now where sailors have set sea anchors in shallow coastal battle zones and complained of a very rough ride – uncomfortable pitching up and down motion. Examples would be file S/M-48 where a sea anchor was deployed in 25-100 fathoms in a contrary current off the coast of Chile, and file S/M-52 where one was deployed in 35 fathoms of the coast of Mendocino, California, a narrow area infamous for chaotic sea states.

It goes without saying that shoals, underwater ledges and continental shelves have a destabilizing influence on wave shapes, in some places exacerbated by underwater geography, strong currents, funnel effect, and/or some other local boundary condition. In the Bass Strait between Australia and Tasmania, for example, mature waves traveling the whole fetch of the Southern Ocean suddenly “pile up” and get squeezed over the continental shelf, creating havoc and pandemonium in certain conditions. Bearing such things in mind, the wise and prudent seaman will anticipate conditions ahead of time and try to avoid a situation in which he has to park his ship right in the middle of a “battle zone.” Remember, if you deploy a sea anchor in a shallow “battle zone” you will be stuck there until the battle is over, even if deep water is only a few miles away. Granted, one can’t always choose, but one should always be mindful of bottom contours and the depth of water under the keel. On any ocean passage one should try to anticipate the exact day on which the keel will cross the boundary that separates deep water from shallow, just in case there’s a storm brewing. (It helps to clearly mark continental shelves, shoals and currents on your charts.)

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: “To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven,” (Ecclesiastes 3:1). A time to use a sea anchor, and a time to use a drogue. Everything else being equal, it might be time to tow a speed-limiting drogue to sail safely out of a battle zone. Conversely, if you are approaching a continental shelf and the forecast is “Force 10 Imminent,” it might be time to deploy your sea anchor and park the boat until the storm passes on and it is safer to sail onto shallower water. The words of John Armstrong, owner of Shag (see file S/M-47 above), are indicative of this sort of hard-gained seafaring wisdom. Having assessed the situation, having considered all of his options, Armstrong decided to deploy the sea anchor in deep water, writing the following: “Plan B... was to run with a Galerider off the stern. Very much a second best alternative especially as we did not wish to approach the continental shelf in those conditions.”

Goto:
news
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Old 13-02-2008, 09:30   #55
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Thanks Gord - some sound advice concerning the increased danger with high seas over shallow bottoms. Worth keeping in mind.

Brad
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Old 14-02-2008, 07:00   #56
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As ever, Gord, a font of wise words and related topics. The triple twisted rope is obvious to those who have started to unwind one, but that would be after the storm.
New thread, ARC incidents this year are reported in Yachting Monthly, UK and include a report of a Cat abandoned after 'slitting' to ensure sinking. One of several boats with chain plates were loose and mast in danger. In the other incidents one mono man died after a boom strike. I'll add more when I remember where she hid that mag.
ARC choose a depart day, I understand, is it then sink or swim together?
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Old 14-02-2008, 09:11   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
As ever, Gord, a font of wise words and related topics. The triple twisted rope is obvious to those who have started to unwind one, but that would be after the storm.
New thread, ARC incidents this year are reported in Yachting Monthly, UK and include a report of a Cat abandoned after 'slitting' to ensure sinking. One of several boats with chain plates were loose and mast in danger. In the other incidents one mono man died after a boom strike. I'll add more when I remember where she hid that mag.
ARC choose a depart day, I understand, is it then sink or swim together?
The cat that was scuttled was a Prout Snowgoose that had been dismasted and then punctured by the mast. It wasn't an ARC boat, but it was rescued by an ARC boat.

Yes the ARC does have a fixed schedule and they have always left on the scheduled day. However, the organisers did delay the start of one of the other events they run and would, if the forecast was sufficiently bad, delay the start. The main reason the ARC starts when it does is to allow the smallest boats to reach the Caribbean in time for Christmas. No other reason.
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Old 14-06-2008, 05:29   #58
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Jordan Series Drogue: Don Jordan's website.

JUNE 2008
Don Jordan's personal website is JordanSeriesDrogue.com

Don is now 92 years old, and has no financial interest in the Jordan Series Drogue.

All his work and consulting has been free of charge 'To help sailors".
He has paid all costs with the website development, maintenance, and hosting. So no, his interest in the drogue is not at all market or financially driven.

From the Pardey's website: Sailing with Lin & Larry Pardey

We have had several folks ask if a Series Drogue could be used in place of a para-anchor. They also ask our opinion of this gear for storm usage. Though many people talk about series drogues we do not recall meeting anyone who has actually used them in storm situations.
The series drogue appears to present a problem when it comes time to recover it. A few months ago we interviewed David Armstrong a New Zealand sailor who lay to a para-anchor for three days during a passage from New Zealand to Tahiti on his 40 foot race boat. Part of that report makes interesting reading before you consider adding a series drogue to your list of cruising gear.


I would respectively suggest the Pardeys do more research before
making recommendations against the Jordan Series Drogue. I have spoken to many people thrilled with the Jordan Series Drogue in storm conditions. I have letters from some stating it saved their families' lives. I also have spoken to those that could not recover their parachutes, and have purchased Jordan Series Drogues.

Don Jordan has commented the Pardey's recommended storm survival method puts them in a very vulnerable position. I will contact Don for further comment.

Dave Pelissier

www.JordanSeriesDrogue Don Jordan's website
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Old 13-01-2009, 06:24   #59
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Jordan Series Drogue, some user accounts

JordanSeriesDrogue.com

Jordan Series Drogue

USER ACCOUNTS:

From: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kimberlite
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 12:33 AM
To: amelyachtowners@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Amel] New Set of Sails

Here is a video of the coast guard rescue of some of the crew of Free fall.
We heard the helicopters and c130 asking to keep an eye out for men in the
water. You can see 2 in he water and the life raft being blown all over.
One died. 4 boats abandoned.

It was the same hurricane we were in except we were further to sea with MUCH larger seas and stronger winds.

We have adjustable loops added to the bridle of the drogue to change the
angle of the stern of the boat to the seas. The cleats held up to the pull
of the drogue. To retrieve the drogue you will need a block of wood to keep
the bridle out of the Chocks. We had to hand tail the drogue into the boat
using the primary winches. You have to stop once in a while to give the
winches time to cool off .our thermal cutouts on the winches tripped a few
times. You must also hand tail most of the drogue as the lines are much
heavier than the winches were designed for. You also have to go slowly;
otherwise you will tear up the cones in the chocks or in the winch.

Life Floating By: Coast Guard Rescues 2 Mt. Pleasant Sailors

As far as I know we were the only boat that made it through the Hurricane
force wins-36 hours-from the northeast. Branson in his 90 footer had so
much damage he pulled into Bermuda. We passed him and flew past the last 2 storms. The only damage we suffered was that the tabs that hold the rear of the doghouse to the cockpit sole tore.

Considering we had it up in over 80 knots directly into the wind, it as
impressive that it held together.

I know we would have not made it with a sea anchor or any other drogue. To understand how it really works you must see it in action. Which I hope you never do. I also launched this in my 37 foot Tartan in another hurricane
years ago.

Unfortunately Mr Jordan Died a few weeks ago. He never patented the drogue or as far as I know ever made a cent from the sales of the drogue.
Rest in peace my savior.

Fair Winds,
Eric
Amel Super Maramu #376 Kimberlite



65' 18 ton sloop, center cockpit "Beyond" John Traylor
"...the series drogue kept the hull very well aligned to the seas...
at most 10 degrees of occasional yaw...Once the hull was held stern to the seas, the wild ride was much smoother.

Contest 40:
The feeling of being elastically attached to the sea itself is hard to imagine. The stern was pointed aggressively into the wind and sea. It was as if we had entered a calm harbor of refuge. With the reduction in the yacht's motion, our situation seemed not too bad.



USHUAIA TO RESCUE
39’ Westerly Sealord, SD4 built in 1984
An email from Mike C.
Hi chaps,

you may or may not remember the will it or wont it arrive on time saga of the jordan drogue i ordered whilst in ushuaia last november (it was sent to my home address in england so's the wife could bring it out with her) , however it did arrive and boy oh boy am i glad.
There is no question about it but that jordan drogue works like a dream.
The attached is an unedited version of our story that was printed in the july 2008 issue of yachting monthly (uk).

I have been asked by a few people how i retrieved the drogue so i thought i may give you my method although i have no doubt that other people use the same.
I first tried pulling in one of the bridles by winch etc etc but that didn't work to great, i then tried using the anchor winch but that caused problems with the boat sailing from side to side and catching the droguettes, the next time i deployed the drogue i attached a polyprop line to the drogue line and then to retrieve just winched it all in over the stern. I found the centre polyprop line to be far easier to use than the bridle lines as it kept the stern central and i didnt need to release either bridle form the cleats until all the pressure was off them.
(the first time i retreived the drogue took 1 1/2 hours, once i 'd got this method sorted it took 20 minutes).
I also used floats on the bridle lines to keep them from snagging my boarding ladder and hydrovane steering sysytem.
All in all everything worked magnificently and i cannot sing the Jordan Drogues praises loud enough, many thanks Mr Jordan and many thanks Ace sailmakers, may all your wishes and dreams come true a thousand times over.

mike clelford
……………..I am now looking for another boat to continue the journey, most people think the forestay is the most likely to break and so fit an emegency forestay, as I had, (the westerly also has a baby stay), but after this experience i will make sure the next boat has at least 2 lowers each side.
I will never leave a port without a Jordan series drogue either.

Brilliance was a 39’ Westerly Sealord, SD4 built in 1984, I had owned her since 1995.



Hi Dave,
I can use something like this to cheer the old man up once in a while. Cheers, Don (Jordan)

----- Original Message
To: donaldjordan@att.net
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:51 PM
Subject: The Jordan Drogue

Dear Mr. Jordan,
I'm a former pilot and still sail, and am writing to you to express both my amazement and thanks for the marvelous thinking which created the Jordan drogue. Year after this we will return to sea with a different boat, and definitely with a Jordan drogue. I would be mad to leave shore without a Jordan drogue. Far into the future sailors are going to be singing your praises.
Best Regards, John


2 hurricanes a few storms
been in hurricane georges and michelle in my tartan 37.
also in a VERY bad storm in about 2001 3 lows came together-weathermen said to stop and do not go further north in our tartan 37.
wound up with the jordan series drogue out (worked like a charm) about 500 miles south of bermuda. when the srorm was over 7 boats were abandoned. after that 2 water spouts and 2 more gales before reaching bermuda.
this november we were heading to the carib from newport just south of the stream. . we were sailing in 50+ knots on our Amel as was my friend
bill in a 64 Oyster. he was hit with a microburst , which he feels was over 100 knots. knocked down, main destroyed, dodger and bimini mia.
made it to bermuda and ordered new sail.

we dont count Gails anymore.as it is common to run into one in november or late april in the atlantic.
fair winds
eric
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charlie--jordan series drogue

Charlie,
on my tartan we fastened the drogue to the primary winches and it worked fine.
i know jordan suggests straps on the stern- but when it gets to drogue time i doubt you want to be hanging over the stern. i have the new drogue for my amel set up to attach to my stern cleats and use rolling hitches to adjust the bridle with the primary winches.
the ride on the tattan with the jordan series drogue was smooth and we were only pooped twice by a couple of humongous breaking waves.Nothing would have helped in those conditions.

I am suspicious of the worth of the gail rider and others as they rely on one device. if it pops out of the water you are screwed. watching the jordan working was amazing some of it was in the water some was out but always a constand pull on the bridle and no tugging or jerking of the boat. i doubt one device would behave the same way.
incidentally I had installed 2 inch scuppers in the tartan 37 and the cockpit drained quickly. once i was in the cockpit once i was below. quite an interesting experience to be rolled over by a wave.
fair winds,
eric
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retreival

i forgot to mention the retreival.
when the wind dropped to 40 knots the boat started rocking swiftly from beam to beam. Very uncomfortable. We were told by herb to stay where we were and not to head further north (7 boats were abandoned to our North). when morning finally came i called ACE sailmakers and asked Dave about the rolling--he had no answer. he said to call mr jordan (on the sat phone) I discussed the problem with Mr Jordan--he sounded like a very old man. he finally said "i know what the proiblem is" i asked what is it . he said " not enough wind" we all got a chuckle out of that.

later we retreived the drogue. it was rather easy. as the boat rolled we pulled in the drogue when it was slack on a primary winch. when the boat rolled back it tightened up the drogue and when it rolled back we had more slack, i never had to winch it in the rolling and pulling made it simple. it took about 20-30 minutes to pull it all in.

DON"T LEAVE HOME WITHOUT IT>
fair winds,



SeaRunner Multihull:

I spent months making it, but I don't regret a minute of the work because it saved our SeaRunner, and us on our maideN sea passage from Florida to the Virgin ISLANDS.
The Jordan Series Drogue deployed easily and smoothly and immediately slowed us from 8 knots to .6 knots under bare poles.

Our strongly built stern lifted easily and smoothly in the oncoming water.
An occasional breaking wave dumped several QUARTS of seawater
in around the window gasket.

Although the rushing and pounding noises were terrific below, we were able to rest because the movement of the boat was quieter regular and predictable.
The pressure on the drogue line alternated rhymmically between the 2 arms of the bridle, the tension was surprisingly light and the winches could be adjusted easily.
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