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Old 21-09-2007, 12:03   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
The article is worth reading, but keep in mind that it is also advertising. The pictures on the page are sensational, but have almost nothing to do with a Jordan drogue. One of the problems with discussing drogues/para-anchors is that those discussing them have very different experiences with actual use. The info from Maxingout on their cat is interesting info on real use above. The conditions that a situation where storm tactics were used are all over the place. It is too common to hear that this worked well for me in a storm, therefor it is a good tactic. Its a good tactic for that level of storm, with that crew, on that boat. If you look at some of the extreme storms where there were multiple boats in them, like the Sydney-Hobart Race, the most successful strategy was actively steering the boat into and over and around the seas. This was possible because the boats tended to have experienced crews and race sized crews. Something that a Mom and Pop cruiser doesn't have.

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Old 21-09-2007, 15:16   #32
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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post

No single failure can make the drogue ineffective.

Hmmm..

The series drogue can double in function as a spare anchor line

Sounds good. But the windlass...............
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Old 21-09-2007, 15:26   #33
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Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
No single failure can make the drogue ineffective. ...

The series drogue can double in function as a spare anchor line

...
Huh! Chafe the rode or the bridle, that is a single point of failure. Pull out a cleat.

No way are you going to use a Jordan drogue as an anchor rode, except possible in an emergency situation.

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Old 21-09-2007, 15:56   #34
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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Huh! Chafe the rode or the bridle, that is a single point of failure. Pull out a cleat.

No way are you going to use a Jordan drogue as an anchor rode, except possible in an emergency situation.

Paul L
That is from here:

Series Drogue, ocean survival

He did say for all to read it after all.

I did and am open minded............since I do not have a boat (does 16' Jon count?) yet.
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Old 21-09-2007, 18:05   #35
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Each arm of my parachute sea anchor bridle is forty feet long
What does the Bridle to Para connection look like?
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Old 21-09-2007, 20:39   #36
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The goal was always to retire to the cabin, it's the safest place to be. It's nuts to sit and steer, you will be cold and exposed and should you need to do something later you will be tired, make bad decisions and that could cost you your life. Once the boat is taken care of get below, have something hot to eat or drink and get in a quarter berth or under the table, then wedge yourself in with soft stuff like pillows, kitbags or sails.
I always assumed the Jordan could be "trimmed" for the appropriate speed ( all boats, all sea states are different). If it couldn't I'd be less thrilled and go back to my home made kit.
I found a bit of speed meant less stress on all parts of the boat, particularly the rudder. No need to steer, the drogue should keep you DDW, if you want to move to one side consider hanging it off the quarter. I always left mt Hydrovane steering with the drogue, was able to sidestep 50 miles in 36 hrs to miss a reef that was downwind.
In less extreme conditions leave the drogue out and slowly increase headsail (assuming your course is below a beam reach). The increase in comfort level in astounding.
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Old 21-09-2007, 21:12   #37
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I read the book on the Syndey-Hobart, Fatal Storm. Quite an excellent read, by the way. But, one of the things that I noticed was how these very well-prepared, highly experienced boats and crews did not use things like drogues and sea anchors. Lots of active steering, or attempts at such, I should say. And, most of the boats came through it. Sadly, though, some did not. The book included a fair number of reports from those they rescued, so we know what they tried. Some boats were never heard from again after a certain point so we don't know what they did.

Could the use of some of these methods discussed made a difference? We'll never know. We do know that some of the conditions they experienced and the forces of the breaking waves on some of the boats was so high that I'm guessing they wouldn't have mattered a bit. When the wave crushes the cabin top, I can't see how a drogue or chute could prevent it. Best thing would have been to be somewhere else.

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Old 21-09-2007, 21:18   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
The article is worth reading, but keep in mind that it is also advertising. The pictures on the page are sensational, but have almost nothing to do with a Jordan drogue.
I thought that too. I don't think any of the photo's were of a boat lying to a drogue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
One of the problems with discussing drogues/para-anchors is that those discussing them have very different experiences with actual use. The info from Maxingout on their cat is interesting info on real use above. The conditions that a situation where storm tactics were used are all over the place. It is too common to hear that this worked well for me in a storm, therefor it is a good tactic. Its a good tactic for that level of storm, with that crew, on that boat. If you look at some of the extreme storms where there were multiple boats in them, like the Sydney-Hobart Race, the most successful strategy was actively steering the boat into and over and around the seas. This was possible because the boats tended to have experienced crews and race sized crews. Something that a Mom and Pop cruiser doesn't have.
Paul L
Actually, the Mom and Pop cruisers employed a far more successful strategy than most of the Sydney-Hobart competitors - in fact I would say the best strategy - in light of the very unfavourable weather forecast for Bass strait, they stayed in harbour.
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Old 22-09-2007, 05:14   #39
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Queen's Birthday Storm

This is a summary of conclusions from the Queen's Birthday Storm of 1994. Three people were lost and 17 people were rescued. Drogues did not seem to help.

The quote is from:

[PUP] Multihulls in the deep blue
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"Five things stand out from the experience of the seven monohulls:

1)Despite all efforts, it was virtually impossible to keep the boats from
ending up beam-to the seas, which resulted in five of the boats being
repeatedly knocked down or rolled.

2) Despite trailing drogues, two of the boats pitchpoled.

3) No matter if the seven monohulls pitchpoled or rolled, all of them lost their masts.

4) As a result of the pitchpoles, knockdowns, and rollovers, many of the crews suffered serious injuries.

4a) Having a ship come alongside to effect a rescue was extremely difficult and dangerous for everyone involved.

5) Perhaps the most amazing thing is how well the seven boats held up to the unthinkably horrible conditions; had it not been for scuttling or collisions with rescuing ships, six of them would have continued to float.

The age-old admonition to never leave a boat until it's underwater would seem as true as ever."
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Old 22-09-2007, 08:18   #40
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Therapy,

Our bridle is joined to the parchute rode through a large swivel. Both ends of the bridles have permanent stainless steel thimbles. The thimbled ends of the bridles are shackled and wired in place with seizing wire to a large swivel. Both ends of the parachute rode also have large stainless steel thimbles permanently in place, and the rode is shackled and seized to the large swivel before the parachute. I actually have two swivels in my set up. One swivel is where the bridle joins the 500 foot double braid rode. The other swivel is just before the chute. Those large swivels serve two purposes. They prevent twisting of parachute rode and bridle. The swivel near the parachute also aids in chute deployment because of the swivel's weight. The swivel weighs more than ten pounds, and when I throw the parachute rapid deployment bag in the water, the heavy swivel quickly pulls the chute out of the bag so that it opens easily and quickly.

Every link in the whole set up has thimbles, and connection between pieces in the system is made with large d-shackles that are seized closed with seizing wire. It is a chafe free system so far.
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Old 22-09-2007, 09:33   #41
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Therapy,

Our bridle is joined to the parchute rode through a large swivel.
It is a chafe free system so far.
Thanks.

I read most of the site and it was interesting about the different types of rope too. And a single shackle for 60 - 90 bucks!!!! I guess I know a little about rope but making sure who/how it was made could be a chore. Get what you pay for and all that!

Thanks again for the real world info and the time it takes you to tell me/us about it.
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Old 04-02-2008, 21:25   #42
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Not all multihulls behave so nicely to a para anchor. A few years back there was an experienced multi designer who abandoned his boat as it was so unstable . Possibly there was not enough rode. My thoughts are to go for a longer set of drogues, equivalent in drag to a paraanchor, but most importantly , try at sea in moderate conditions to make sure it all works. As I plan to build a Harryproa, for me the argument of stern or bow anchoring is academic,
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Old 05-02-2008, 11:49   #43
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Robert, I assume you are talking about Richard Woods and his well publicized experience in his (former) Eclipse. Yes, his sea-anchor collapsed from time to time, putting huge strain on the boat as it refilled. Yes, eventually it tore to pieces. However, it was a used parachute rather than a purpose-built sea-anchor and yes, there is certainly some suggestion that he did not have out nearly enough rode.

I too have been a huge fan of the 'concept' of the series drogue, for reasons already expounded upon by others. I also have concerns that a para-anchor will be more difficult to deploy and may require adjustment from time to time, to keep it in the same relative position on the wave train as the boat.

That being said, the experiences here of someone who has actually used his para-anchor in severe conditions in a catamaran - and done so successfully, have convinced me to buy both. I would still tend to deploy the series-drogue first: it is easier to deploy as it can simply be let out from the rear of the boat. And although Jordan does not talk about letting out only part of the drogue in order to simply reduce speed and increase stability, I see no reason that this cannot be done. Indeed, even a relatively short length should be much more effective than simply trailing warps. In such circumstances, the series-drogue would tend to operate like warps with overhand knots, or most home-made drogues - slowing the boat and assisting in keeping her from broaching.

As conditions further deteriorate, I would let out increasing amounts of the series drogue and finally, consider letting out all of the series-drogue in an effort to slow her down to the described 1-2 knots. Here, however, is where my concerns are about using the series drogue in a typical cruising catamaran during 'survival' conditions.

Most cats have huge cockpits and, lets face it, no bridge decks. Some have less than ideal companionway doors - I imagine very few would be watertight against flooding. Some have steps down into the entrance into the saloon - an area where water would accumulate and likely drain into the interior much faster than it could be eliminated through the cockpit drains. I know, I know, the stern of the cat should lift with each passing wave. But about breaking waves?

In those conditions, I personally would want to have a properly designed para-anchor available. If the series-drogue turns out to be up to the task (and my concerns about cockpit and interior flooding wrong), then I can just continue with the series-drogue. Otherwise, I would want the additonal insurance.

Brad
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:24   #44
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Not all multihulls behave so nicely to a para anchor. A few years back there was an experienced multi designer who abandoned his boat as it was so unstable . Possibly there was not enough rode. My thoughts are to go for a longer set of drogues, equivalent in drag to a paraanchor, but most importantly , try at sea in moderate conditions to make sure it all works. As I plan to build a Harryproa, for me the argument of stern or bow anchoring is academic,
Robert
Robert,
I have read a bunch of stuff (a whole bunch).
I have not been aboard any boat in conditions that would make one need either drogues or a para anchor. Lucky me.
I have made a decision though if I am ever lucky enough to get a nice cat AND am lucky enough to have the time and money for a looonnggg trip.
I will have a para anchor and that is about it. It will be set up before it is needed and I predict the deployment will be pretty much toss it overboard one component at a time and then go make coffee after it is set. Coffee because I know I will not be able to sleep until I watch it for a while.
I have many dreams, some nightmares.
This is just one of the nightmares I have over and over again (and I don't even have a boat yet - sheesh!- I pre-plan too much) and I sleep pretty well now.
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Old 07-02-2008, 03:31   #45
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So, as completely green (ie inexperienced) cat owners, intending to sail fm NZ to Tonga in May -on a 40ft Fontaine Pajot - what should we have on board. We have a para anchor and a funnel style drogue, but, having read Dashews 'surviving the storm' think we may also get a Jordan series drogue.
???
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