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Old 30-08-2015, 14:39   #1
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Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

I'm planning to circumnav in the next year or so, once I've sold my worldly good.

Narrowing down the choice of Cats I've determined two must haves are:

1) daggerboards rather than keel hulls - I actually like the centerboard design, rather than the daggerboard type, where the centerboard rotates at 90 degrees to retract into the hull. It seems the centerboard would be more capable to have a pin that gets sacrificed in the event of a grounding that could be cheaply and easily fixed with less risk of serious damage. However, I haven't found any centerboard designs in use on any of the mainline cats I'm looking at.

If anybody knows of a centerboard type design I'd appreciate the suggestions.

2) I plan to do some higher latitude sailing and want protection at the helm, and quite possibly some heat too! The catana line sure has the daggerboard feature I like, however the helms are too exposed imho.

Unfortunately I do have some budget constraints - 200 to 400k is the range I'm shopping. Any ideas of vessels in the 42-48 foot range that have those two features would be great to hear about.

Thanks in advance!!
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Old 30-08-2015, 22:47   #2
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Thumbs up Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

john goss cats or most Australian have covered helms quite a few have daggerboards you might also want shaft dries you can change a prop in water saildrive not so easy
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Old 31-08-2015, 00:54   #3
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

Centre-boards may be good for kicking-up upon striking an underwater object, but they usually have very poor hydro-dynamic shape, which affects your ability to go to windward. The slot it uses in the hull also creates more turbulence and drag than a dagger-board slot, even if covered with some kind of rubber blocking material to try to maintain hull shape. If you are looking at serious distances, this drag and lack of lateral efficiency could add up.

The dagger-board is far more efficient - apparently the board is best in a near-vertical design, or even with the toe slightly forward. I know - poor for catching and not easily releasing weed and other growth. Of course, you could reduce chances of hitting something when sailing in perilous waters by having the boards partially or fully raised. Some boards have a deliberately-weak sacrificial lower portion so that the possibility of hull damage is reduced.

You might consider kick-up rudders as well for the same reasons, and for being so much easier to access and repair.

One other consideration. Whether dagger or centre-board, is that you will lose very little efficiency in the design if the board is not exactly on centre in each hull. In fact it can be off-set - and even canted to one side or the other - by a couple of feet or so, and unless you are into serious racing, it will make little difference to your progress. But it could make it hugely more convenient for interior space design and the exit location through the deck above if a dagger-board.

Everything is a trade-off on a boat!

Cheers,

RR.
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Old 31-08-2015, 09:01   #4
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

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Originally Posted by psychfeld View Post
2) I plan to do some higher latitude sailing and want protection at the helm, and quite possibly some heat too! The catana line sure has the daggerboard feature I like, however the helms are too exposed imho.
I understand your preference for "protection" at the helm. Not liking cold weather myself, there have been times on many boats when I wish I could have been warmer at the helm(s). Usually people who dislike the Catana dual outboard helms can be broken down into two groups: people who don't like them and people who have tried them. Cold weather notwithstanding, when it's snotty at one helm it can be quite comfortable at the other one.

You might also want to think of hull strength if you might be around some ice. The Catana hulls have a layer of Twaron (Kevlar) that is likely not present in other boats you may consider.

Good luck!

Dave
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Old 31-08-2015, 09:36   #5
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

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Usually people who dislike the Catana dual outboard helms can be broken down into two groups: people who don't like them and people who have tried them.
I have sailed Catanas and still prefer inboard helms. On the other hand, outboard helms would never be a deal breaker for me, and I would jump on an opportunity to own a 471.

Now those Catanas with the throne in the middle for a helm is the worse of both worlds - that might come close to being a deal-breaker for me.

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Old 31-08-2015, 13:59   #6
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

I prefer no helm at all. Why would you want to be out there steering unless you were racing?

I've sailed 10,000 miles or so in the last couple of years, and probably spent less than 10 hours steering. The autopilot is usually on before I've left the harbour and I don't switch it off until I see the dock. Inside the bridgedeck I have all round views, complete shelter and I can see the foresail tell tails. I only wish I had a wind vane that would talk to the autopilot so that I had the option of steering by the wind sometimes rather than by the compass.
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Old 31-08-2015, 23:11   #7
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

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Originally Posted by takeabow40 View Post
john goss cats or most Australian have covered helms quite a few have daggerboards you might also want shaft dries you can change a prop in water saildrive not so easy

might be worth a look, and within the 400k budget new,ex vietnam.

I am picking up the standard lite 1160 later in the year as prefer this layup but the new lifting rudders look sweet.

New Catamaran Design: 1190 Sport - Seawind CatamaransSeawind Catamarans
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Old 01-09-2015, 04:27   #8
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

Another disadvantage of the rotating centreboard is the pivot, its another degree of mechanical breakdown, complexity, maintenance and leakage.
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Old 01-09-2015, 05:12   #9
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

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Originally Posted by takeabow40 View Post
you might also want shaft dries you can change a prop in water saildrive not so easy
Can you please explain why changing a prop on a saildrive in the water is any more difficult than on a shaft?

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Old 01-09-2015, 06:13   #10
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Can you please explain why changing a prop on a saildrive in the water is any more difficult than on a shaft?



Dave

Yeah that was a strange comment seeing as it's so much easier to change a prop on a sail drive. No puller needed as no tapered shaft.


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Old 01-09-2015, 09:55   #11
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

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Yeah that was a strange comment seeing as it's so much easier to change a prop on a sail drive. No puller needed as no tapered shaft.


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If you want ease of maintenance and repairs (particularly in cold water), hard to beat a modern outboard. Worst case, we can hook it up to the boom and pull it into the cockpit to work on it.

Dagger boards are more efficent but if you hit something, they are usually designed to "hopefully" shear off. Rotating boards, will "generally" kick up with little or no damage. Fixed keels are "usually" sturdy enough to take a grounding. It's all trade offs.
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Old 01-09-2015, 21:55   #12
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

If I were in the market with that budget I would buy this boat in a heart beat. We met these people in Trinidad earlier this year and spent a couple of weeks with them, the boat is just perfect for a circumnavigation.

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Old 09-11-2015, 16:21   #13
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

Your desire for a centerboard is a very justified one. It never made sense to me to use a daggerboard in anything other than a racing hull. With a cruising boat, it is like running around a crowded New York street whilst holding a dagger pointed at your chest... sonner or later you're gonna get it. Neither is there a problem with the pin of a properly designed centerboard. But a centerboard cat still does not mean that you can realistically beach it. Any large loaded cruising cat has the propensity crush it hull when hard aground, unlike a stripped out beach cat. Small keels allow cruising cats to take to beaching, however, fixed keels on catamarans is not what you want either, as they DO trip the boat and don't allow the boat to surf sideways when needed. Jim Brown had the right idea with his Searunner trimarans (combining a stub minikeel with a centerboard) giving you best of both worlds, however, very few cats have ever been designed of built with them. The only examples I am aware of the is Robert Harris Sungod 50 (only two were ever built, one was mine) and the 71' x 40' cat I built in Venezuela in 1990. However, the traditional centerboards have a real problem that few people are really aware of, in that they create a huge suction into the centerboard case when they are put down. The only solution for that is the quadrant board, which keeps the slot closed by virtue of it's geometry, and eliminates that huge sucking noise that come from the centerboard pendant tube. Also, don't let them fool you, a centerboard can be even more effective (contrary to popular opinion) than skinny daggerboards on a cruising cat, as long as they have substantially more area. I have found that the extra wetted surface is minimal drag compared to the overall drag of sailing to windward (as opposed to off the wind) where leeway resistance (lateral plane area) can be more effective than using skinny dagger foils. In either case, both are lifted downwind.
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Old 09-11-2015, 17:11   #14
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

Quote:
Originally Posted by psychfeld View Post
I'm planning to circumnav in the next year or so, once I've sold my worldly good.

Narrowing down the choice of Cats I've determined two must haves are:

1) daggerboards rather than keel hulls -

If anybody knows of a centerboard type design I'd appreciate the suggestions.

2) I plan to do some higher latitude sailing and want protection at the helm, and quite possibly some heat too! The catana line sure has the daggerboard feature I like, however the helms are too exposed imho.

Unfortunately I do have some budget constraints - 200 to 400k is the range I'm shopping. Any ideas of vessels in the 42-48 foot range that have those two features would be great to hear about.

Thanks in advance!!
Given that your requirements are unlikely to be met, you might like to think outside the box.
The Cruiser60 has inside/outside helming, kick up and liftable daggerboards/rudders and propellors.
It also has more usable deck space, a bigger tender and easier to handle rig than any of the cruising cats, while being lighter and longer for better performance.
The first one is under way at Balotta in Peru, and is expected to come in well within your budget due mainly to the build method which eliminates a lot of the mess, waste and work associated with conventional builds.
This boat is headed for Patagonia so a lot of thought has gone into heating.
Cruiser 60

force99,
"like running around a crowded New York street whilst holding a dagger pointed at your chest" is an excellent description of the uselessness of daggerboards on cruising boats.
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Old 09-11-2015, 21:34   #15
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Re: Seeking Cats with Daggerboards and Protected Helm

Maine Cat 41. 6" shy at 41'6" - Not only is the enclosed helm great, but you can see forward (and 360) from every seat on the bridgedeck. One owner lived aboard here in the PNW for 2 1/2 years.
e.g.
2007 Maine Cat 41 Catamaran Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
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