Second Forestay on a Catamaran?

[Blackie Swart]

Originally Posted by SwissMocha

What kind of boat? Were you able to do it with the existing mast?
So I suppose you didn't put a furler system on that, right?
Well, the hassle of tacking is not an issue when you jibe instead, right?
Questions, questions, questions

The boat was a Simmonis design Parley, only a few built, but it was designed with the inner stay. I'm searching for a photo (post later) of the storm jib design. I only had the furler system on the main forestay.

[Blackie Swart]

Correct Helia 44 - my old cat was a "fractional rig" - attached is the storm jib.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...&d=1413268528y

[SVI]

How do you calculate the area (in sq m) of the storm jib?
I guess it has to be equal to the 3rd-reef main? Or maybe even 2nd - then I can keep the 140 genoa furled in in 35-40kn of wind.

I have a Salina with a GRP bowsprit, the bowsprit has two very solid bolts holding it to the deck, I believe I can use these for the lower point for the inner forestay, removable. The sail in a bag can be placed in the anchor locker below



Top point has to be the same as the mainstay - no inner shrouds

[SwissMocha]

Originally Posted by Helia 44

With a Fractional Rig, like on the Helia, as I said, I would not be comfortable with only one furling headstay holding the rig up beating to windward, as any minor failure and the whole rig comes down on you.. Like most I have a working sail on the inner fore stay, and most have a "Gennaker" or "Screacher" more light air sail on the outer fore stay. Mine is set up with a solid working sail on the inner fore stay, like in old terms maybe 6-7 ounce working jib maybe even 8 ounce, and out on the end is what is more like a 150 Genoa about 5 ounce, in monohull terms....
Helia 44

OK, I get it, this is the setup I was looking for. In that case you will not use the inner forestay that much...
Since I'm looking at FP's a lot, would it be possible to mount an inner forestay for a storm jib? It would have to be attachted in front of the trampolin, since there is no solid structure between the forestay and the bridgedeck. Has anybody ever done that?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Dave852

The St Francis 50 has an inner forestay, it's setup to fly a storm jib though.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

And some older Lagoons have a similar set up.

[SwissMocha]

And hello to you again, Helia

I really appreciate your opinions and explanations, this is really what such a thread is all about.

Originally Posted by Helia 44

I mean you can furl it as weather worsens, down to 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 furled. When you have this system with a large working jib, there is no reason to be out there doing the hard and dangerous work changing sails down to a storm jib in my opinion..

I completely agree with the changing sails part. For me it would only work with an inner forestay with furler and a smaller jib sail, which could be used in heavy conditions without having to leave the cockpit. I'm not so comfortable with the idea to sail with a partly furled genoa. But this seems to be today's standard.

Originally Posted by Helia 44

OK with that? I mean well, am only here to help and share the 40 years of sailing passion.. I mean if you were a racer, and extreme self punishment sort,....

Absolutely Ok. Absolutely no desire for self punishment. I want to sail comfortably and safely and trying to avoid trouble, even if it means to stay somewhere sheltered for a while.

It is like you mentioned earlier in your first post, it is a challenge to get around a point of view and get comfortable with a system that seems to have established itself.
Question is, is this setup reasonable for long distance cruising, i.e. crossing the Atlantic or is it mainly aimed to work for leasure cruisers in the med and caribbean?

[downunder]

Fairly new australian design the FF46 has a very strong rig with inner forestay as standard. designed for it.

FreeFlow Catamarans

Cheers

[SwissMocha]

Originally Posted by downunder

Fairly new australian design the FF46 has a very strong rig with inner forestay as standard. designed for it.

FreeFlow Catamarans

Cheers

Nice design!

[monte]

An option worth investigating are the storm jibs that wrap around the existing furled jib. I think they're called a storm bag or something

[SwissMocha]

Originally Posted by monte

An option worth investigating are the storm jibs that wrap around the existing furled jib. I think they're called a storm bag or something

Yes, it's called storm bag. I was told about that, when I visited the Cannes Boat Show, just found it on youtube ->

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeVix3gbZdc

This looks actually pretty cool, however, you have to leave the safe cockpit in heavy conditions

[Helia 44]

Originally Posted by SwissMocha

And hello to you again, Helia

I really appreciate your opinions and explanations, this is really what such a thread is all about.

I completely agree with the changing sails part. For me it would only work with an inner forestay with furler and a smaller jib sail, which could be used in heavy conditions without having to leave the cockpit. I'm not so comfortable with the idea to sail with a partly furled genoa. But this seems to be today's standard.

Absolutely Ok. Absolutely no desire for self punishment. I want to sail comfortably and safely and trying to avoid trouble, even if it means to stay somewhere sheltered for a while.

It is like you mentioned earlier in your first post, it is a challenge to get around a point of view and get comfortable with a system that seems to have established itself.
Question is, is this setup reasonable for long distance cruising, i.e. crossing the Atlantic or is it mainly aimed to work for leasure cruisers in the med and caribbean?

Hello again SwissMocha.... You User Name makes me want one.. heh he
I Guess you could say the same for mine, Helia 44...

Now on your question. My inner fore stay, is really just like a normal fore stay furler. The prodder has a big lighter air sail... A Genoa to you.. On the inner fore stay, is a heavier working jib.. Note that if the sail is of reasonably heavy cloth and cut right as a full working jib, I have no problem at all with it being partially furled as a storm jib. You can reduce it down to as small as you like if it is made for that kind of furling as mine is. And yes, I feel that is a good off-shore design, and yes I feel the Helia 44 is an off-shore design. It is another subject but for example by definition something like a Catana is a stronger boat, stronger hull and build, money no object. But the Catana is not as much of luxury with huge problems of outboard helms and such to live with. The Helia is both luxury and reasonable offshore.. OK? Anyway back to your question, and I will go one more step:

Note that by the time you are in conditions that are severe enough to be putting away even the storm jib, your problem is your existing windage will be such that the major issue is slowing yourself down by dragging warps. Dragging even hundreds of feet of anchor line or heavy small drogue to keep your stern to the storm and slow you down, THAT will be your focus, I can assure you. THAT is what is beyond the storm jib. The storm jib can be used when you are travelling in heavy weather, but things are in control and I see no problem with using that working jib furled down even to a storm jib size offshore.. OK? The obvious is still clear, in those marginal conditions, I do not want to be up there on the fore deck...

Kind regards, Helia, that little ray of sunshine..

[UNCIVILIZED]

This is what monte is referring to, I believe. ATN Sailing Equipment | The Gale Sail | Easy Handling Storm Jib As to their efficacy, I cannot comment.
While I'm sure that from a shape standpoint, they're leagues ahead of a genoa that's rolled up 70%-90%. Though that's not saying a lot. Also, either way; the super rolled up genoa, or Gale Sail, you're putting a LOT of loads onto your furler for which it was never really designed. Especially on the foils, their connections, & the drum + the halyard swivel.

It wouldn't be difficult to put loads approaching a ton or more, concentrated into a fairly small section of the furler's foil, in a mid sized catamaran, given say, full gale conditions. And that's just from the sail being flown, I'm not including the windage of the furled up jenny. Or the beating it takes from having the weight of a sail that large, on it, as you bash through a new wave every 4 seconds.

Such is what broke Ellen McArthur's headstay in one of her record, round the world victories. Despite the headstay being purposefully WAY oversized. A size larger than even the most conservative riggers ha specified for her vessel.
Luckily she was "relatively" close to the finish when it broke.

If you have a set of bulkheads in proximity near to your cross beam, odds are it'd be safe enough to add a set of pad eyes, bolted through the hull, near them. With the purpose of the padeyes being to set up a set of wires, forming the base for a detachable inner forestay.
Or if you don't currently have such structure in your vessel, it wouldn't be a complex job to add such. And to even go so far as to tie in the padeyes directly to this structure.

Have a chat with the boat's designer about it. He may even wind up telling you that you can rig up this lower bridle in a location akin to where one would typically have the lower end of a staysail mounted.

As to where on the mast you might be able to mount a stay. It's doubtful that you could mount a stay at the conventional staysail height. Especially without runners. But again, have a chat with the designer, AND a GOOD rigger as well. I mention the rigger, as you may just get the "party line" & some bureaucrat who reflexively says no to such a modification. Instead of someone who will, & likely already has, run the numbers for doing such a thing on your boat.

Option B, in lieu of a typical Staysail stay, is a Solent stay. One mounted just inside, & a small distance below the primary headstay. On that topic, & also your options for flying other headsails than what's on your furler, I'd HIGHLY recommend reading the following threads.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ay-127556.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ed-134013.html
And it's worth doing a search under Solent Stays, & absorbing some of your findings, as; the info's good & it also fields some of your questions/questions which will arise. Plus there are some links you'll find when reading on, & researching the topics, that'll take you to folks with similar & semi-similar conundrums. So in addition to answering your questions, it'll help expand your knowledge base.

That said, there are few rigs out there which are so spindly as to not be able to handle the loads from a solent stay. And said stay, given you the option to hank on all sorts of headsails. In addition to helping to hold the mast up of course.
Also, while the vessels in the attached threads are primarily mono hulls, & thus have some options for the base of a stay which you don't, there are still plenty of ways of affixing the lower end of a "part time" stay on a catamaran.

Hope that helps.

[SwissMocha]

Originally Posted by Helia 44

I Guess you could say the same for mine, Helia 44...

Ahh yes, daydreaming in the office

[SwissMocha]

Originally Posted by Helia 44

You User Name makes me want one.. heh he
I Guess you could say the same for mine, Helia 44...

I'm presumably more affordable....

[UNCIVILIZED]

Guys,
I was typing when that "Storm Bag" thing was posted. I have ZERO doubts that in the real world, as they show it rigged, it's a non-starter. And also in that video it's not even blowing 25kts.

Said sail is set so low that it'll be destroyed within about 90 seconds after being set, as when it's blowing north of 30kts, the waves coming over the bow are solid green water, a fair number of them @ eyeball height & upwards, when you're going upwind.

Also, the sail doesn't have any of the reinforcements around the edges or fittings, which traditional storm sails do. And they have'em so that they can survive the occasional greenie which they catch.
Albeit, they're flown a LOT higher off of the deck. Not just so that the sail survives the waves, but so that it's up high enough so that when the boat's in a trough, the sail's high enough to catch sufficient wind in order to keep the boat moving.

One other thing, if you're afraid to get out of the cockpit when it's blowing 35kts, you've little business being out there at all, PERIOD. Unless that is, you're under the tuteledge of an expert. Who can walk you through swapping out jibs in heavy weather, & the whole host of other things which need tending to when it's blowing.

Such is not a huge amount of wind. I've been on plenty of vessels where we routinely flew a full main, the storm kite, & at times a staysail as well, when it was blowing fully 40kts. Both short handed, and fully crewed.

The reason such items as this/these piss me off is that you wind up with folks going out in conditions where they have no business being. And that they've not put in the time to get enough miles under the keel, along with the experience which comes with such, subsequently. So we wind up with a generation or two of sailors who think that they can buy their way out of bad situations with toys like this. And or, when they get really scared, they press the "HELP" button on their electronics, thereby asking other men & women to come out (into harm's way) & "save them". When with proper planning & experience, a good percentage of such incidents would merely become good tales to tell, down the road a piece.

And yeah, I both know (personally), those who go out & save folks who are in over their head(s). In addition to having done some of it myself.
Getting the depth of knowledge needed to handle a boat in truly heavy weather ain't something which you can purchase, or get a firm grasp of what needs doing when, via a class or two. Although the latter is a start in the right direction.

Then comes the most dreaded of all beasts. People trying to Legislate "Safety". The insanity of which is tough to believe despite experiencing it's idiocy firsthand.
Such as being told to get off of the bow of a racing yacht, by a 19yr old harbor patrolman, as "bow riding" is dangerous. Kid was just itching to hand out a citation. To a mate, who literally had more time on the water than said kid had been alive.
Er, I guess we'll just have to put an end to racing then, as said yachts don't run without folks called "bowmen".

Rant mode off.