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Old 15-04-2012, 18:43   #16
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

[QUOTE=tuskie;931356]
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The owner of the charter company said Seawinds have “Poverty Pack” fittings and said we should go for a Leopard instead.

Please ask the charter which Seawind fittings were "poverty pack". I'd be surprised if any aspect of a Leopard ( or Lagoon or FP, for that matter) was of superior quality to a Seawind.
The main drawback of Seawinds is their price. If you can afford the price of a Seawind 1250 Platinum Pack, I doubt that you'll be disappointed with the fittings. Factor may disagree, but you are paying very serious money for the 1250 Platinum, which could buy some excellent alternatives. Think custom layouts and fit outs, carbon chain plates, dagger boards, electric winches and furlers, etc. Or a Leopard and a fair bit of spare cash.
Before you look seriously at an older (Simonis designed) Leopard or Voyage cat go out on one and try motoring into a 1.5 - 2.0 metre head sea and experience the bridge deck slap. I have only tried one newer (Morelli and Melvin) Leopard, and it, a 46', seemed much improved over the older designs due to substantially increased bridge deck clearance.
It always comes back to money and compromise. Seawinds are excellent sailing cruisers. For the same amount of money however, at the moment you could buy a larger and more spacious Leopard, Lagoon or FP, that would probably be more comfortable at anchor, but would get there more slowly. Your choice.
We plan to charter a Leopard 46 in a few months’ time (A bit bigger than we really need) and while I am there I will ask him to clarify his opinions on the Seawind fittings. Since it has caused a bit of a stir

I am glad I asked this question as we are definitely leaning towards a second hand Seawind 1160. I’d love the budget to be able to stretch to a 1250 but unless we won the lotto I can’t see that happening.

Thanks again for all the feedback it is much appreciated.
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Old 16-04-2012, 04:15   #17
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

You can get a lot more for your money by not buying Australian. Sad but true.
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Old 16-04-2012, 04:19   #18
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

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You can get a lot more for your money by not buying Australian. Sad but true.
Sometimes more is less
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Old 16-04-2012, 04:20   #19
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

Didn't take long for the token comment from the Seawind agent.
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Old 16-04-2012, 05:38   #20
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Didn't take long for the token comment from the Seawind agent.
Sometimes the truth hurts don't it?
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Old 16-04-2012, 05:49   #21
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

You Seawhinge boys really stick together.
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Old 16-04-2012, 06:03   #22
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

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Sometimes more is less
What does that even mean?

There will obviously be tradeoffs between different models - OP - you need to decide what you want. Speed? Comfort? Living space on the hook? Cost?

For me, galley up is a requirement, which negates many of the Seawinds.
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Old 16-04-2012, 06:55   #23
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

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What does that even mean?

There will obviously be tradeoffs between different models - OP - you need to decide what you want. Speed? Comfort? Living space on the hook? Cost?

For me, galley up is a requirement, which negates many of the Seawinds.
Or what does that mean even............... snide & supercilious........ but all is in jest surely...................
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Old 16-04-2012, 16:14   #24
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

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What does that even mean?

There will obviously be tradeoffs between different models - OP - you need to decide what you want. Speed? Comfort? Living space on the hook? Cost?

For me, galley up is a requirement, which negates many of the Seawinds.
Okay lets pick a different designer - say Jeff Schionning. His really fast boats are really skinny - think G force his "fatter" boats (think Wilderness) are slower.

No surprise there if you make huge fat hulls and particularly bums then the boat will be much slower and sail to windward less well. It will also be heavier as you will need more physical glass and resin, and because it doesn't sail as well you will want larger motors which weigh more but more importantly use more fuel so you will want to carry more fuel which weighs more and so it goes.

Now Jeff's boats are still all fairly good performers, primarily because they are designed to be light, and even his big volume hulls are skinnier than most production boats and his philosophy is if you want to carry more crap then you need more length. Chris White has a similar approach

It aint rocket science - its just basic physics.

Going bigger means it costs more to park it at marinas, the rig needs to be bigger etc etc.

My point is - going bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.
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Old 16-04-2012, 16:42   #25
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

Something to consider is all the hull and build issues some brands have had.
The ones with more problems are Lagoon, FP, Catana, Admiral, Wildcat, and Dean and Leopard.
The ones with less problems are Privilege, Seawind, Outremer, Manta, Maine Cat, Prout/Broadblue, and Catalac.
All these boats in the 2 categories are listed in no particular order. Gemini does have a few issues but are relatively minor so it would be between catgories. Also some of these manufacturers have shut down.
OZ is the mecca of one offs and homebuilts and many done very well. If I was there I definetely consider these. I like forum members Oram 44.
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Old 17-04-2012, 01:56   #26
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

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Okay lets pick a different designer - say Jeff Schionning. His really fast boats are really skinny - think G force his "fatter" boats (think Wilderness) are slower.

No surprise there if you make huge fat hulls and particularly bums then the boat will be much slower and sail to windward less well. It will also be heavier as you will need more physical glass and resin, and because it doesn't sail as well you will want larger motors which weigh more but more importantly use more fuel so you will want to carry more fuel which weighs more and so it goes.

Now Jeff's boats are still all fairly good performers, primarily because they are designed to be light, and even his big volume hulls are skinnier than most production boats and his philosophy is if you want to carry more crap then you need more length. Chris White has a similar approach

It aint rocket science - its just basic physics.

Going bigger means it costs more to park it at marinas, the rig needs to be bigger etc etc.

My point is - going bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.
So more is more but sometimes lesser & less is less but can be better
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Old 17-04-2012, 03:32   #27
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I guess its a case of do you have a winnebago taste for touring or a vw kombi kind of standard?
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Old 17-04-2012, 03:56   #28
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

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Obviously I avoid threads like these given my apparent bias.

But I find that statement to be strange. All fittings are quality brands, eg harken, ronstan, spinlock etc. If he meant standard inclusions, as far as I know the 1250 is the only boat in the world that comes standard with a water maker, twin engine controls etc.
Like why would anyone 'poverty pack' something that is going to suffer real abuse???
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Old 17-04-2012, 04:00   #29
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Re: Seawind V Lagoon, Leopard, Fountaine Pajot

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Something to consider is all the hull and build issues some brands have had.
The ones with more problems are Lagoon, FP, Catana, Admiral, Wildcat, and Dean and Leopard.
The ones with less problems are Privilege, Seawind, Outremer, Manta, Maine Cat, Prout/Broadblue, and Catalac.
All these boats in the 2 categories are listed in no particular order. Gemini does have a few issues but are relatively minor so it would be between catgories. Also some of these manufacturers have shut down.
OZ is the mecca of one offs and homebuilts and many done very well. If I was there I definetely consider these. I like forum members Oram 44.
Hull and build issues are definitely something to consider - but I would be cautious about the 'more problems' with production boats thinking.

What I mean by that is that while there are definitely anecdotal stories of issues with the boats listed, you have to take that into consideration with the number of boats each manufacturer has produced. 10/600 Lagoons having issues is the same as 1/60 of something with a smaller run.

I'm looking right now, and every anecdotal story makes me take pause, but at the same time you have to keep perspective (but make a list to ensure you check for known issues during survey!).

I do think it's interesting to pay attention to the apparent shift at many charter companies. Moorings/Sunsail seem to have moved away from Lagoons towards Leopards (and I think it went FP --> Lagoon before that).

The big charter fleets obviously have the most experience with multiple boats and their quality/strength/durability etc. If they are making the move, there must be a reason.
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Old 17-04-2012, 04:05   #30
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I do believe Moorings/ sunsail own Leopard or have a big share in it at least!
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