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Old 23-04-2012, 19:39   #16
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

Double diagonal is a form of cold molding. It is more rot resistant because the glue lines form barriers against the progress of rot. Norm Cross did offer sheet ply, chine versions as well.
The Nicol designs are double diagonal as well as are many of the Horstmans.
There was a Kantola tri for sail in San Fransisco not long ago that looked in good shape.
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Old 23-04-2012, 21:26   #17
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

Hi Cav....Do you remember which boat it was ? I'm in the bay area and interested in finding a Kantola....
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Old 23-04-2012, 22:23   #18
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

Oops, it was/is advertised South of Frisco on Orange County/Longbeach Craigs list from 3/18/12 . 34'6" L 23'6" W. It looks nice, somewhat like a performance Cross. I don't know if it is still for sail but they were asking $29500.
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Old 23-04-2012, 22:29   #19
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

aw yes...3d dimension
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Old 23-04-2012, 22:29   #20
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

KANTOLA TRIMARAN

Here is the ad.
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Old 24-04-2012, 03:37   #21
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

How about the Cross 40

Cross 40 Trimaran

It was for sale may still be.
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Old 24-04-2012, 05:21   #22
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

In most seakeeping characteristics, windward ability, and perhaps speed... Searunners are much better boats. Same is true for their "place for everything", super low COG, rig, and central cockpit layout. It is one of the most perfect ocean going layouts ever drawn, and with the "variable draft" of an automatically kicking up CB, they are much more forgiving to soft groundings. Having said that, with a split layout, double spreader cutter rig, storage compartments & hatches galore, 8 ports, a CB trunk, etc... They have ample opportunity for problems, IF they have been poorly built or neglected by their owners, over the years. If you find a "cherry", and want a shallow draft, but REAL "sea boat", the Searunner is hard to beat. We have cruised tens of thousands of miles in ours, visiting dozens of countries & hundreds of islands. We've never had a major problem with the boat, (structurally), the design, or the low windage, low COG concept. Their is one exception... they are poor cold weather liveaboards, due to the split cabins.

The old Crosses, on the other hand, are way less developed for "cruising". Their keel locks you into a much deeper draft, and when you do go aground on a falling tide, you will end up laying WAY over! If neglected, however, the keel is less of a hassle, and might still be fine, or easier to repair. Also, since the Cross doesn't have the Searunner's numerous refinements, it is more forgiving to years of neglect. The more common aft cockpit of a Cross, while inferior at sea, is MUCH more commodious at the dock. Only our "full cockpit enclosure" helped us get around this.

If you want or find a "cheaper", more neglected trimaran, can tolerate the down sides of loosing shallow (= VARIABLE) draft, can live with a keel, and will mostly be tied to the dock or daysailing... you might be better off with a Cross, or similar.

Searunners are superior "real cruising" boats, we love ours... but they are not very forgiving to decades of owner neglect.

If you buy one, i'd get a real "cherry", in near perfect shape structurally, or not at all. It is a LOT of boat, and a bit more complicated, to have to bring back from the dead!

M.
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Old 24-04-2012, 09:03   #23
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

Ummmm...Mark you don't really have a unbiased perspective. The Cross tris are great cruising boats that can handle anything. and have. The LAR keel is a good solution for many sailors and has many good points. Searunners are nice boats but there are many others that work just as well. Boats like the racing Cross' or the Kantola pictured eat SR 34's for breakfast. Even Jim Brown said if he did it all over he would make the SR interior less defined.
That said The Cross 40 pictured looks like a early design, go to Jeff Turner's Cross Multihulls web site for a look at the models. The later 40 is a stretched Cross 38 and a very attractive boat. One family's 40, Anduril, has logged tens of thousands of trouble free miles over years of world voyaging.

For searunner owners make sure all the trunk reinforcing structure is adequately ventilated. These compartments are rot traps do to poor air circulation but the boats need them for strength. Given good airflow the should provide years of trouble free service. Remember, nothing rots like a damp sealed plywood box...
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Old 24-04-2012, 19:34   #24
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

Anduril (Cross 40) circumnavigated, twice. Once with the whole family and a second time when the "kids" took her around without the parents. Many other Cross designs have 10s of thousands of miles under their keels (as do Brown designs).
Kantola designs are also double diagonal planked and very fast but with centerboards like Brown designs and higher volume amas. They are fairly rare, not near as many were built as Cross or Brown designs.
I have owned a Cross and Kantola design, both excellent sailors and very good at sea. I've not sailed Searunners other than a couple of daysails, but in full cruising mode my Kantola 41 was faster than Searunner 40 cruising with us.
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Old 18-08-2012, 10:59   #25
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

Wow, how did I miss this thread? Thanks for all the nice comments from others.

Anduril has indeed been around twice, as well as two additional loops through the Pacific (one to the south, one to the north through Alaska) and then a round-trip from CA to FL through the Caribbean. There are lots of other Cross' with similar tales.

She was built over two-and-a-half years from 1973 to 1975 and is triple diagonal cold molded with WEST system epoxy. She is still in the family (we will be out next weekend watching the AC 45's on SF Bay if anyone is in the vicinity).

If I go back to the OP's question, I would ask whether he prefers comfort or speed, since there is a big difference. For comfort, I would look at Cross, Searunner, and some of the Kantola's. Whenever I draw my "next boat" it looks like a mix of those three. If you're looking for really speedy cruising (with even more of a backpacking mentality) then I would go elsewhere (not sure exactly where, would have to give that some thought).

Among the comfort boats I probably have a bias toward our Cross that is at least as strong as Mark's toward the Searunner. When I read his post I kept exclaiming "yeah, but...". I decided I shouldn't wade in, I think both boats are terrific. There are times I've been on Searunners and said "I wish our boat..." and we've had Searunner crews over who have said the same thing to us.

The short story long is that the right specimens of these boats, properly built and maintained, can be great. On the last trip we did the Puddle Jump, made the Marquesas anywhere from 5-10 days ahead of the monohulls, and never missed a single hot meal. Didn't have pots full of food come off the stove. These are things that I think make a trimaran (any decent one) a great cruising home. A well-rested, well-fed, comfortable crew makes the sailing that much better.

As most of the previous posters have said, you have to be careful with your surveys. We are now talking about boats that are 20-40 years old, and many of which were built by home enthusiasts (ours is one of those). I would argue that our own record shows that some of these boats can be quite sound, but every one of us here has seen the opposite too many times to count.

Tread carefully, think about how you like to live, and then picture it on the boat your are considering. If you can't approach life on these boats without at least somewhat of a backpacking mentality then it is time to re-consider or go larger. While the Cross and the Searunner are both very forgiving, you have to remember that they were designed and intended to be light, and work best when used that way (this coming from someone who perpetually overloads, and has a dive compressor and tanks on board).

I feel like I could keep writing forever to post to a dead thread, if anyone is still reading and has any questions I'm sometimes around and will try to answer.
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Old 18-08-2012, 12:59   #26
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

Yep.. still reading the threads. Thanks to all contributors for your personal experiences & measured opinions. I guess it comes down to the availability of a "cherry" now. I believe i would be happy with either searunner or cross
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Old 18-08-2012, 14:49   #27
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

Hello Dsanduril, I like the Cross boats quite a bit so keep going. There is a large amount of difference in the models from the cruisers to the racers. I've had sort of hit and miss success in communicating with Jeff Turner, others haven't been able to connect at all. Do you know what is going on there?
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Old 18-08-2012, 15:30   #28
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

I think I still have Jeff's contact info around. I'll see if I can dig it up later and give him a call. We haven't spoken in quite some time (several years?), but I've known the family for some time - Jim (Mr. Turner at the time) was the principal at my elementary school when I was a kid, long before we even started construction on Anduril.

I'll also dig around and see if we still have the complete plan set for Anduril, if we do I know it's really beat up, but it might actually be around. Norm made a lot of changes to lighten the boat after we built, but I'm not super familiar with those.

The racers are a whole different beast. I sailed on Defiance and Little D a few times, don't think I would like to cruise in that format, but what a blast when racing.

If you like something in between I really like Redwood Coast, a Marples 44. She had very nice lines and was quick. Not quite a racer, but also not quite as "plush" as our boat. Probably a great compromise in a more modern design.
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Old 18-08-2012, 18:42   #29
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post

If you like something in between I really like Redwood Coast, a Marples 44. She had very nice lines and was quick. Not quite a racer, but also not quite as "plush" as our boat. Probably a great compromise in a more modern design.
I just met the owner a few hours ago and had to ask about the boat. It looks very capable with its wide footprint and carbon fiber mast.
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Old 18-08-2012, 20:34   #30
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Re: Searunner or Norman Cross

I actually like the Cross boats better than Marples, I kind of agree with Norm that CC didn't produce the best shapes for sailing. They are more of a compromise towards a steanlined build though they still seem to take as long. I've been looking at the racing Cross tris and the fast cruisers like the Cross 44. Not sure I plan to build one ever after redoing the Nicol but I like the thought of haveing the plans on hand in case.
Anduril is a stretched 38, somewhat similar isn't it?
Last question....You guys were in the Farallones race this year weren't you? I seem to have seen doublehand results somewhere that showed you did alright.
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