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Old 29-07-2016, 07:16   #1
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Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

Hi everyone! We have a new Lagoon 52 (Summer Kai) and we are in the process of outfitting her. Our goal with the boat is to cruise the Caribbean for a year or so and then, who knows... We are trying to decide what type of sail (Screecher, Code 0, parasailor or Spinnaker) we should purchase next. The sail loft is recommending a Code 0 because of its light air capability. We already have the furling gear and the bow sprit so that's not an issue. For reference, we will be sailing short handed (wife & two young children). Any advice or thoughts would be quite welcome.

thanks

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s/v Summer Kai
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Old 29-07-2016, 08:32   #2
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

A Code 0 is for close to beam reaching. I'd get an all purpose asym that will allow you to use it from 80-140 degrees AWA. (More than 140 and it will be blanketed by the main unless you drop it)
As I understand the parasailor it is not compatible with a furler and is more for downwind sailing.
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Old 29-07-2016, 08:47   #3
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

The first question to answer is what do you want to use it for in terms of making your sail inventory more well rounded. More specifically, what wind ranges, & wind angles do you want to use it in.
There's an example of drawing up a grid of what sails are flown in specific wind ranges & angles at Beth & Evans's website, here Sail Combinations And even the pro's use such charts, as it make it stupid simple to know what to hoistfly, & when. As well as to identify holes in one's quiver.
Edit: There's also some stuff on sail choices & wind strengths here Articles

You'll also need to consider what you want to use hardware wise. In terms of furlers, halyard systems (2:1 for Code 0's, or 1:1 on A-Sails). As well as furler type, & where the tack will be attached, as luff loads on Code 0's aren't small by any means. Also, when you're pondering furlers, there's the furlers vs. sock question which needs addressing.

Look over the info on the sails & hardware carefully, as all have issues. Such as it's not uncommon to have hiccups furling a spinnaker so that it's not a tight furl, which makes it hard to unfurl it easily later. And even when furled properly, it's unwise to leave them hoisted like you do with a jib.

I've covered all of the above in great depth, as well as some other very significant questions that bear looking into, to make a more fully informed decision on sail type, & gear setup. Much of it is in the below linked post, but also do a search under Code 0 & you'll find a bunch of stuff which I wrote on Code 0's, A-Sails (spin's), & Screechers. Plus an exhaustive questionaire on Code 0's, their hardware, plus other types of Spin/Code 0 gear. And a kind gent in the Class 40 fleet answered the vast bulk of the huge number of questions that I posed.

I'd cut & paste you the addy's to the posts which I'm alluding, but I don't have the links handy. But the info's here on the forums if you're so inclined.
Here's one Nylone,or laminate for screecher?

Good luck!


PS: When you're considering Code 0's make sure that you & the sailmaker are on the same page terminology wise. As a cruising Code 0 & a true Code 0 are quite different beasts. With the latter being a specialized upwind "spinnaker" that's flown quite differently than the cruising version. But there are ways to use one in place of the other, including for downwind work.
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Old 29-07-2016, 09:05   #4
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

I would buy none for the Caribbean, as you either motor upwind (say approaching an anchorage) or else fast beam reaching (or nearly so) between the islands. This is so in the windwards, maybe a bit less so in the leewards.

If at all, I would consider an universal light reacher - a sail fuller than a zero and not as deep nor slack in the tack as a G2 is. And the luff 'short'.

Our reacher is built in 'heavy' 1.5 oz nylon and has a zero luff and the depth of about a cruising spinnaker (except the top, where it is way flatter). We can fly it in 5 to 25 knots (5-15 up / 10-25 down) and it delivers about 20% extra speed. The angles are maybe 60 degrees light upwind work to maybe 135/140 degrees max reaching.

PS because of the variations in wind out there consider a sail that can be quickly furled away zero style.

I will try to find a picture of a similar sail.

named G0 here:
http://www.centrovelicostellapolare....vstrom%202.gif

visible here:
http://i1.wp.com/www.sailingtotem.co...tric.jpg?w=640

And this discussion reflects the idea.
The best sails for downwind cruising | Sailing Totem

"... A “code zero” for cruising doesn’t really fit what implied within racing. Some sailmakers are branding names (Doyle UPS, etc.) but let’s just call it a cruising code zero (CCZ). A screecher for cruising has the same general characteristics as CCZ, but for multihulls. To simplify here, they’re collectively called CCZ/S...."

Have fun!

Cheers,
b.
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Old 29-07-2016, 12:29   #5
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
SNIP

And this discussion reflects the idea.
The best sails for downwind cruising | Sailing Totem

"... A “code zero” for cruising doesn’t really fit what implied within racing. Some sailmakers are branding names (Doyle UPS, etc.) but let’s just call it a cruising code zero (CCZ). A screecher for cruising has the same general characteristics as CCZ, but for multihulls. To simplify here, they’re collectively called CCZ/S...."

Have fun!

Cheers,
b.
I am getting a 502 (bad gateway) when I click on your link.

I don't claim to be an expert but my impression was a code zero was more of a light air sail (0 ounce) while a screecher was made of heavier sail material and pointed better than a code zero. Given that many cruising multihulls often don't point as well as we might like it would seem to me a screecher would be the best all round choice. Even in a place with lots of reaching and running the screecher could be used even if it was not as effective as a sail made for going down wind. On the other hand a screecher would have a definite advantage up wind.

I have often sailed wing on wing with my screecher and working jib. If the wind picks up I simply use the working jib. If the wind is so light that the head sails have problems staying full it is probably time (as much as I hate it) to use engines.

Let me repeat I am no expert and welcome any corrections.
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Old 29-07-2016, 13:47   #6
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

The problem here is terminology. Sadly Code Zero's have a cache value and reputation so sail makers started calling every thing a code 0. This has made it almost impossible to discuss intelligently because everyone is thinking of a different cut sail.

Below is North Sails deliniation guide. The Code is all the way to the right in orange (C0-2), the Genniker is to the right in pink and blue, G2 and G3. Technically there is a G1, but it's a stupid sail so they removed it (it fits into the hole between the boat and the G2-3 for <10kn of breeze only).

Personally I would go with the C1. It's a sails a little further off the wind than a 0 but has far less luff load and can reach deep better.

One thing I should point out, a true Code has to measure in as a spinnaker, which means the mid girth measurements are all screwie. It forces a strange cut to the sail that no one wants. Ideally a cruising code eliminates that section, and which it may not technically measure in as a spinnaker it's actually a better sail.
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Old 29-07-2016, 14:30   #7
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomfl View Post

(...)

I don't claim to be an expert but my impression was a code zero was more of a light air sail (0 ounce) while a screecher was made of heavier sail material and pointed better than a code zero. Given that many cruising multihulls often don't point as well as we might like it would seem to me a screecher would be the best all round choice. Even in a place with lots of reaching and running the screecher could be used even if it was not as effective as a sail made for going down wind. On the other hand a screecher would have a definite advantage up wind.
There is no biblical way to name these beasts and the lady put it, IMHO, about right: a C0 is a pretty technical and racing name that in the limited world of cruising is best translated like this:

"... A “code zero” for cruising doesn’t really fit what implied within racing. Some sailmakers are branding names (Doyle UPS, etc.) but let’s just call it a cruising code zero (CCZ). A screecher for cruising has the same general characteristics as CCZ, but for multihulls. To simplify here, they’re collectively called CCZ/S...."

This is to say cruising boats will normally not use Code Zero sails in the understanding and technology of the racing crowd: cruising boats do not sail the speeds and angles the racing boats do. Sails are built to fit the wind / boat / conditions and a racing C0 could be a very poor choice for a much slower racing boat that sails way different angles.

So, on a cruising boat, the sail closest to C0 will be a special "Genoa Zero" sail - strait luff, free flying, light but not stretchy canvas, flatter than a cruising gennaker, deeper than a racing C0, typically used in light upwind or medium wind reaching conditions. A ghoster of sorts. UPS by Doyle, C1 at North, reacher or screacher elsewhere.

The way Stumble discusses this, using North terminology, is very adequate. If you use Doyle terminology you will get Doyle people conversant with North people. If you use cruising crowd technology, we will end up blank due to reasons quoted ibid.

Anyways, you walk into a loft and you give the angles, the wind force range, your boat style, etc to the person and you walk out with the right sail and without that beer money. The name is not all that important if we know what we want the sail to do for us.

BTW I have two sails here I built for our last passage. They are baniakers. Now go figure what they are all about.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 29-07-2016, 16:54   #8
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

Great information here - thanks.

On my 440, I have a 70sqm screecher on an endless line furler and a 155sqm ASI in a sock.
The screecher is the easiest sail on the boat to use. I wouldn't be without it. As stated above, it has a rather straight luff which needs to be tight (very tight if you are trying to sail to windward). In light air, you will get 60 AWA. In heavier air - 70-75 AWA (which is really a reach with TWA 90). It shines in 75-100 AWA, but flies with minor reduction in luff tension to 130AWA. Buy this sail and you will use it all the time largely for its ease of use. No UV protection on mine so it stays up if I'm at sea, but comes down when at the dock.

The ASI is nice to have, but in truth because I'm usually short handed, it stays stowed more than it should. I've never hoisted it solo (getting it down is the issue), but have with the services of a novice who can release the tack and ease the sheet under instruction while the AP steers near DDW. If the wind is up, you really need one experienced or two not so experienced additional crew to sock it safely. With experience a husband and wife could do it well in most conditions. IF you are planning on a lot of deep reaching of downwind sailing, it would be good to have as the screecher will not be of much help beyond 140 AWA.

In light air, an ASI will sail at 65 AWA using a bridle from the windward bow to the sprint keeping the tack centred and the luff very tight.



Of course, you can get both for the price of a Parasailor.
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Old 30-07-2016, 10:49   #9
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

Taking into account your crew, my advice is to buy the fullest sail that you can put on the furler you already have. Symmetrics/Parasailors etc. need more involvement and experience notwithstanding whatever the sailmakers will tell you about the ease of using snuffers.
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Old 30-07-2016, 11:21   #10
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

This is my 2 cents worth on these two sail options, part of an article just submitted.
Screachers, Reachers, and Code 0s
These large headsail names are often descriptions for the same sail. The terms may be different throughout various parts of the world. In the USA, the old wire luff "reachers" made of nylon, have been replaced with "screachers" or Code 0s. These are large, loose luff sails, set on short bow sprits, typically used with an anti torque luff rope and furler. In some European countries, these are refered to these as gennakers.
Screachers
The term "Screacher" was coined in the early days of the Corsair F-27 racing in South Florida. It was in an attempt to get a reacher classified as a small spinnaker to avoid a handicap hit for an over sized headsail. This didn't last long as race committees saw it for what it was.
The evolution on the screacher, has produced a low stretch sail that can be used effectively upwind in light air. It will need to be designed to tack to a bow sprit and sheet inside the cap shrouds, trimmed to an inboard position of 10 to 12 degrees off centerline. Screachers work best with low stretch, anti torque luff ropes, and 2 to 1 halyards highly tensioned.
Unlike the reachers of the past, these sails must be designed and built to take the considerably loads of high apparent wind angles and speeds while maintaining a flat upwind shape.
If used upwind in true winds of 10 kt, it is not unusual to have apparent winds in the 17 + knots range. A properly designed and trimmed screacher can be a real work horse upwind and close reaching in the light breezes. This can greatly reduce motoring time while adding to sailing pleasure. If used on a furler, the furling line can be lead to a position close to the furling line for the jib. It will than be a simple procedure to roll up the jib, and unroll the screacher, as the wind gets light, or reverse this, when the breeze increases.
Code 0
For some long reaching or downwind passages, the main, jib, and screacher, may still lack the horse power to achieve good speed averages. The solution here is either a Code 0 or an asymmetrical spinnaker.
The original Code 0s were designed for the Volvo round the world racers, as their flattest spinnaker. These early sails were heavy nylon with wider mid girths. Because of the popularity of this trend, sail cloth manufacturers designed and produced fabrics specifically for Code 0 sails. This Code 0 cloth is a laminated fabric with mylar film on one side, strong warp fibers in the center and a light taffeta on the other side. Heavier versions include Aramid fibers in the warp for added strength. The end product is a light, low stretch, fabric with a "soft hand." This can be stuffed in a bag, doused with a sleeve, or used with a furler.
We design these, as well as the screachers, with an adjustable Spectra, or Vectran "anti torque" luff rope that furl well on continuous line Code 0 furlers.
The Code 0 that we build for multihulls, uses the same attachment points as the spinnaker, the end of the bow sprint, spinnaker halyard, and sheet blocks in the back of the hulls. The foots are longer than the screachers and are trimmed outside the shrouds. With the wider sheeting angles, the highest these sails can be used are about 60 to 70 degrees off the true wind. The additional area, compared to the screacher, creates a powerful reaching sail as well as an easy to use downwind sail. These Code 0 sails are designed with the draft forward and flat leech like a large gena. This creates good top end speeds for the reaches producing more power per square foot than the asymmetrical spinnakers.
If made with the laminate Code 0 cloths or light dacron, these sails can have a light weight UV strip, allowing them to be left furled on the bow sprits for lengths of time.
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Old 30-07-2016, 11:44   #11
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

We have had a 1.5 oz Code 0, an asymmetrical spinnaker and a symmetrical spinnaker for over 12 years. BY FAR, we have used the Code 0 on a continuous furler the most. It's easy to use in a wide range of conditions, from upwind in light air to use as a heavy-air spinnaker. If all our headsails disappeared, we would replace the Code 0 first.

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Old 30-07-2016, 13:56   #12
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

Quote:
Originally Posted by davecalvert View Post

(...)

In some European countries, these are refered to these as gennakers.

(...)
Yes, possibly, but this implies sailing-ignorant nations.

One take: a gennaker will have a long luff. A Zero, a screecher, a Zero Genoa will have a short luff. (A long luff is one that cannot be made taut by hauling the sail all the way up).

To put it another way, you want a top-down for a gennaker and a plain/torque furler for a Zero style sail.

Another way: a zero styled sail is likely light dacron, laminate, or less common 'low stretch' nylon. A gennaker will nearly always be a nylon sail.

Another try: a zero styled sail for upwind and reaching, a gennaker styled sail for reaching and broad reaching. A top full gennaker can be used running too (J.Boats fly them this way).

As you said it, plenty of terms used in a very freestyle way by cruisers. Mistake never done by racers though.

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Old 30-07-2016, 14:55   #13
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

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TSNIP

Screachers work best with low stretch, anti torque luff ropes, and 2 to 1 halyards highly tensioned.
Unlike the reachers of the past, these sails must be designed and built to take the considerably loads of high apparent wind angles and speeds while maintaining a flat upwind shape.
If used upwind in true winds of 10 kt, it is not unusual to have apparent winds in the 17 + knots range. A properly designed and trimmed screacher can be a real work horse upwind and close reaching in the light breezes. This can greatly reduce motoring time while adding to sailing pleasure. If used on a furler, the furling line can be lead to a position close to the furling line for the jib. It will than be a simple procedure to roll up the jib, and unroll the screacher, as the wind gets light, or reverse this, when the breeze increases.

SNIP
My setup is not 2 to 1 but I do put the halyard on a winch and crank it till my arms are tired going up wind. On the other hand I am not above reducing the tension as I fall off or the wind changes direction.

Since I am a singlehander I seldom use the screecher if the wind is above 10 knots. My experience has been that I go faster with both the screecher and the working jib flying at the same time. I will go to the leeward steering station and look at the slot between the working jib and the main and the slot between the screecher and the working jib and try to get the slots identical. I do have a big square top main and have often noticed playing with the traveler is more effective in altering the shape of the main and its slot than playing with the main sheet.

I do have an asymmetrical but if the truth be known it came with the boat and while the previous owner did use a few times I have never flown it. I can go fast enough with the working jib and perhaps one or two reefs in the main in strong winds. If the wind is light enough that an asymmetrical would help it is often so light that I am reduced to motoring.

YMMV
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Old 30-07-2016, 14:57   #14
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
SNIP

Mistake never done by racers though.

Cheers,
b

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Old 30-07-2016, 15:12   #15
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Re: Screecher vs. Code 0- Help Deciding

Lots of great conversation here! Thank you. Looks like I have a little more homework to do before a I make a decision. At the end of the day, I'm looking for- simple / easy to handle & and improved boat speed in <10 knots so I hopefully will use the engine a little less. We've been up on the Chesapeake this summer and we're learning that the iron horse gets used a lot more than I would like. Once again. Appreciate all of the great feedback.
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