Scarlet's Annapolis Review

[TxAgs]

We just got back from the show as well. We are interested in the Lipari 41 as a charter boat. Boat looked ok to us. I felt it was a better bang for the buck than the Helia. I was amazed how so many catamarans have poor visibility of the transoms and bows from the steering.

Very impressed with the Antares.

I also had a chance to look at a Chris White Atlantic 42 while we were in town. I'm in love!

Jason

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by scarlet

OMG! REALLY?!?! I hope you aren't a comedian by trade.

Almost 2900 posts... and 95% are for self entertainment...

(I started strong though... )

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by scarlet

The things that have changed are:

1. I no longer have any desire to buy a new boat. The used boats we have seen are very nice, and there is too much depreciation on the new ones. LIKE WAY TOO MUCH...
2. I have to really watch the deck design.. I want everything to be as level as possible. I don't want either of us to trip, or fall because there are too many uneven spots on the deck.
3. I'm really starting to look at rigging, and what that means to the sailability of the boat. I also have noticed that some of the cats do not have "all lines running to the helm". The helm position can get busy... "Convienient to the helm" is a better thought process... AND... AND.. AND... Nothing is permanent... don't like the way a line runs or terminates? MOVE IT...
4. I don't need a big galley like I originally thought. Bingo...
5. Bridgedeck clearance has become very important.
6. after our seminar we took, I'm really leaning towards no 'genset'... The panel seemed to agree that with a good alternator, lithium batteries, and adequate wind and solar panels.. you should be able to get by without it.. Depends on your refrigeration and watermaker demands...
7. Watermake is VERY important now.. before it was a want.. now it is a need based on how we want to sail. YESINDEEDEE....
8. NO WOOD on DECK!!! it is a LOT of upkeep that I don't want! +1
9. helm placement has become a HUGE discussion. There seems to be no real good place for the helm.. so, that will continue to be a consideration.
10. I do NOT want a helm chair.. I want a moulded seat!

I'm sure there is more...

There's ALWAYS more...

[BandB]

Originally Posted by scarlet

The things that have changed are:

1. I no longer have any desire to buy a new boat. The used boats we have seen are very nice, and there is too much depreciation on the new ones.
2. I have to really watch the deck design.. I want everything to be as level as possible. I don't want either of us to trip, or fall because there are too many uneven spots on the deck.
3. I'm really starting to look at rigging, and what that means to the sailability of the boat. I also have noticed that some of the cats do not have "all lines running to the helm".
4. I don't need a big galley like I originally thought.
5. Bridgedeck clearance has become very important.
6. after our seminar we took, I'm really leaning towards no 'genset'... The panel seemed to agree that with a good alternator, lithium batteries, and adequate wind and solar panels.. you should be able to get by without it..
7. Watermake is VERY important now.. before it was a want.. now it is a need based on how we want to sail.
8. NO WOOD on DECK!!! it is a LOT of upkeep that I don't want!
9. helm placement has become a HUGE discussion. There seems to be no real good place for the helm.. so, that will continue to be a consideration.
10. I do NOT want a helm chair.. I want a moulded seat!

I'm sure there is more...

Careful about #4. It would just seem to me that is one that could grow over time. Perhaps somewhere in between. Perhaps break down the galley into components and instead of thinking size, think attributes. Questions like what do you use counters for and then how much counter space? What about sink space? How many range burners? What size oven and microwave? Dishwasher? What size refrigerator and freezer?

Just as the watermaker really changed based on intended use, I think those things do too. They also could impact your generator decision. The weekend boater needs a small refrigerator and very little freezer. The cruiser needs freezing capacity. Some of us use different appliances depending on our cooking practices.

[FollowingCs]

My wife and I were at the show on Sunday and Monday, tramping around the same boats mentioned here. Monday was a bit wet, but we spent an hour each just hanging out on the Antares (Live Wide), the Helia and the St Francis. We spent a few minutes on the Outreamer, but when the designer frankly told me I was 'too broad in the shoulders' for the Outreamer 45, we left that one alone. 'We all know a linebacker when we see one....' he said.... thanks Frenchy.... lol.

It was nice to sit there in the salon or out on deck and just absorb it all. And then just think, 'hey I wonder about that kitchen thing', so we jumped up and looked at whatever it was we thought of. Was time well spent.

Biggest show conclusions:
1. My wife is asking 'ownership' questions, which means she has bought in. She said she bought in before, but I wasn't sure if she was just appeasing me... lol.

2. My wife got to talk to many others who are either getting ready to do it or have done it. This got her a little excited, which was nice to see.

3. She still doesn't get the saying 'the man is the Captain and the wife is the Admiral'. Then one guy said, 'it's just like on land, we sailors just have a label for it', and I think she got it... lol.

4. She will NOT NOT NOT even try a monohull. I tried to get her on the nicest ones I could find, and they just rocked too much for her even right there on the dock. So a used cat is in our future....

~ Following C's ~

[cwjohm]

Scarlet

In regard to 6 I do not know any cruiser, even the most radical green ones, who go without a genset, if only a small Honda 2Kw. As to Lithium Ion you will be struggling to find a second hand boat with these as they are still too expensive. Sure you can chuck the old batteries and put in Li Ion in after purchase but this will be a significant additional cost.

The argument in regard to solar rages on this forum. Personally, I think a big solar array is expensive and fugly, but there are others who strongly disagree, so you will certainly find second hand boats that have large solar arrays. However, to think that you will survive with even the biggest solar array over a week of overcast and rain is sheer folly.

The critical factor here is the difference between day sailing and cruising. For cruising you need more freezer and fridge space and that takes big amps. You need toaster, coffee maker, hair dryer. You have a watermaker - more amps and so you take longer showers. All this takes significant amps.

In any case I think you will be struggling to find a second hand boat set up for cruising without a genset. Not saying there are not any, but the vast majority will be genset equipped.

[scarlet]

cwjohm... I'm hoping Factor pops in here. He was on the panel at the forum, and this topic was discussed. My husband even asked a follow up question to make sure that he understood correctly. So.. Factor.. if you are playing along.. could you address this issue?

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Scarlet

Personally, I think a big solar array is expensive and fugly,

Butt fugly.

We have a 12 and 8 kva, which is overkill I'll admit. An 8 and 5 would have been fine

[Tellie]

Originally Posted by avb3

I've only been to the Miami show, twice.

Is there anyone on here that has been to both recently and advise if there is any advantage to one from the other? (Annapolis vs. Miami)

Thanks.

Working both shows I'd say it depends. If you are looking to compare boats then Annapolis, there are simply more boats there. If you have a boat and are looking for ideas to outfit your existing boat then either because basically the same vendors and suppliers pretty much have to do both shows if they are smart. So location and scheduling will determine which would be best for those looking to outfit their boats. On a personal aside, I think the weather is always better at the Miami show, I hate the rain during a show.

Oh, and those seriously looking at the Outremers. Let me know, I have a pretty good and close relationship with those guys.

[RichinBoca]

Scarlett .... Thanks for the great review! You aimed thing up very nicely. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on the Antares if you wouldn't mind.


Rich
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[cwjohm]

Hi Scarlet

Andrew (factor) and I are old mates. Over the years I have looked at Seawinds and Outremers.

Firstly, Andrew does not believe in air-con on a boat, which is fair enough, but when I am in 40C and 100% humidity I want air con. This alone means I want a generator.

Secondly, those faster boats like Seawind and Outremer are very affected by weight so adding a washing machine is a no-no. IMHO you cannot cruise without a washing machine. Guess what - you need a generator.

Thirdly, you should ask Andrew how much Outremer charge for Lithium Ion fitout. I know because I have looked at it but it would not be right for me to put those figures out there.

So if you want air con or a w/m you need a generator. If you have a generator then it cost $2 per hour to charge your batteries.

This is where the arguments come in. I have 480W of flexibles and 240W of floating and my Helia looks streamlined. No fugly solar array attached. Yes I have to run my generator occasionally. Others would rather spend $10-20K to save a few hours on the genny. It is all personal preference.

Over to you Andrew.

[smj]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Scarlet

In regard to 6 I do not know any cruiser, even the most radical green ones, who go without a genset, if only a small Honda 2Kw. As to Lithium Ion you will be struggling to find a second hand boat with these as they are still too expensive. Sure you can chuck the old batteries and put in Li Ion in after purchase but this will be a significant additional cost.

The argument in regard to solar rages on this forum. Personally, I think a big solar array is expensive and fugly, but there are others who strongly disagree, so you will certainly find second hand boats that have large solar arrays. However, to think that you will survive with even the biggest solar array over a week of overcast and rain is sheer folly.

The critical factor here is the difference between day sailing and cruising. For cruising you need more freezer and fridge space and that takes big amps. You need toaster, coffee maker, hair dryer. You have a watermaker - more amps and so you take longer showers. All this takes significant amps.

In any case I think you will be struggling to find a second hand boat set up for cruising without a genset. Not saying there are not any, but the vast majority will be genset equipped.

Gotta say after nearly twenty years of living aboard we never had a toaster, coffee maker or hair dryer let alone a washer dryer! We do have a five year old Honda 2000 that we keep covered, so looks brand new and may have 30-40 hours on it.:-)
10k-20k for solar? That ought to power a small town! A generator is not a necessity for cruising but some like it to have more shoreside comforts. Is that wrong? No, but neither is the ability to be able to survive without one!


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[cwjohm]

I am reminded of the old Monty Python skit "The Yorkshiremen" which I will not go into because last time I did I was in trouble with the moderators.

Suffice it to say we can live life "toof" and survive without all these modern new fangled whatnots like real sailors of yore, or we can have a little comfort and wash our clothes occasionally like wimps. Put me, but most especially my good lady, firmly in the wimp category, and we will keep our generator. From my observation we seem to be in the vast majority.

[scarlet]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Hi Scarlet

Andrew (factor) and I are old mates. Over the years I have looked at Seawinds and Outremers.

Firstly, Andrew does not believe in air-con on a boat, which is fair enough, but when I am in 40C and 100% humidity I want air con. This alone means I want a generator.

Secondly, those faster boats like Seawind and Outremer are very affected by weight so adding a washing machine is a no-no. IMHO you cannot cruise without a washing machine. Guess what - you need a generator.

Thirdly, you should ask Andrew how much Outremer charge for Lithium Ion fitout. I know because I have looked at it but it would not be right for me to put those figures out there.

So if you want air con or a w/m you need a generator. If you have a generator then it cost $2 per hour to charge your batteries.

This is where the arguments come in. I have 480W of flexibles and 240W of floating and my Helia looks streamlined. No fugly solar array attached. Yes I have to run my generator occasionally. Others would rather spend $10-20K to save a few hours on the genny. It is all personal preference.

Over to you Andrew.

AHHH... perfect explaination. And yes.. I have to have a washing machine.. and I will probably need air conditioning..

[smj]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

I am reminded of the old Monty Python skit "The Yorkshiremen" which I will not go into because last time I did I was in trouble with the moderators.

Suffice it to say we can live life "toof" and survive without all these modern new fangled whatnots like real sailors of yore, or we can have a little comfort and wash our clothes occasionally like wimps. Put me, but most especially my good lady, firmly in the wimp category, and we will keep our generator. From my observation we seem to be in the vast majority.

I fully understand what you are saying. We owned a 43' cat with generator, three AC's etc.etc.etc. To us it was a lot of undesirable maintenance and worries, just what we try to get away from while cruising. Doesn't mean that my way is right or yours is wrong, just a different perspective.


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