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Old 23-10-2014, 15:12   #166
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Re: Scarlet's Annapolis Review

Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Hi Scarlet

Andrew (factor) and I are old mates. Over the years I have looked at Seawinds and Outremers.

Firstly, Andrew does not believe in air-con on a boat, which is fair enough, but when I am in 40C and 100% humidity I want air con. This alone means I want a generator.

Secondly, those faster boats like Seawind and Outremer are very affected by weight so adding a washing machine is a no-no. IMHO you cannot cruise without a washing machine. Guess what - you need a generator.

Thirdly, you should ask Andrew how much Outremer charge for Lithium Ion fitout. I know because I have looked at it but it would not be right for me to put those figures out there.

So if you want air con or a w/m you need a generator. If you have a generator then it cost $2 per hour to charge your batteries.

This is where the arguments come in. I have 480W of flexibles and 240W of floating and my Helia looks streamlined. No fugly solar array attached. Yes I have to run my generator occasionally. Others would rather spend $10-20K to save a few hours on the genny. It is all personal preference.

Over to you Andrew.
Hi Chris

Annapolis was a great experience for me. I always wanted to se it and so I did this year. Many thoughts from it. Firstly the market in the US is different to OZ, significantly. Dare I say it but a greater proportion of the punters are educated buyers in Australia, they know and understand the differences and the underlying physics and philosophy of Multihull sailing.

There were some great boats, and also some really strange implementations of the multihull approach. Certainly convenience and comfort are valued, by and large much more highly in the US market. I really liked the Neel, though wouldn't own one, parking space and absolutely no visibility from the cockpit were the deal breakers there. The Balance (Montebello revisited was a reasonable go at Roger Hills design though the reverse bows looked to be, as they are, an afterthought. The Dragonfly is a great boat, beautifully built and finished and sails well. The Gunboats were impressive but wouldn't tempt me away from an Outremer if I had the money. The Maverick was interesting and had some great deign touches but (and this is personal) had been hit with the ugly stick a bit. The usual array of Lagoons and FPs had by far the most visitors. The Isara was everything that isn't right, in my humble opinion for Multis, too heavy and too complex, great apartment, but simply won't sail well if the laws of physics haven't changed. There were a number of

I think its worth explaining that I don't value performance above all else, but if a sailing boat won't sail well then you may as well save the money and inconvenience of a stick and sails, and buy a power cat instead. I have cruised extensively on my boat and have 350 hours on the engines after 5 years. And my boat is NOT a high performance boat, but it sails reasonably well and sails when others are motoring. The whole point of a sailing boat for me is to sail. That also needs efficient systems, for example I never turn my fridge and freezer off and don't have shore power, it runs well on the solar.

The seminar was great, I enjoyed meeting Gregor Tarjan for the first time and was struck by how similar our views were. The folk there were keen and interested and seemed to enjoy the morning. Sadly I had to leave early as I had to drive back to Toronto in Canada, to catch a plane to France to go and see the Outremer 45 in the water. The fundamental message I tried to impart was to go sooner rather than later, with what you can afford rather than what you think you want.

Onto some of your comments:

It isn't that I don't believe that you don't need air con on a boat, its just I have never experienced that need at anchor. The only time I have really experienced the need is at a marina, where there is usually 240 available. Of course I am usually on boats with great ventilation so that helps. So no gen set needed. Same for washing machine, if you absolutely need one at anchor then I think we are approaching cruising from vastly different perspectives. Washing machines are on many seawinds (1250s). Again unless you want to do washing at Middle Percy Island no gen set needed. Gen sets are not the norm with most multihull cruisers. If you have a diesel engine boat, you can great power output from innovative charging systems so the hour of engine running when anchoring and departing will put back limps of power.

It really comes down to what you NEED to go cruising. Of course everyone's need is different, for me the experience of being out there is important less so is the desire to have luxury. I am often reminded that Cruising is defined as "Boat Maintenance in new and interesting places", and the more stuff you have the more maintenance required.

Weight is important on Multihulls, you simply cannot have a fat hulled boat that carries huge loads and performs well. If the beam of the hull as a percentage of the length of a hull is not fine enough the boat will not sail well. As all the speakers said, don't buy anything more than you need, if you need air con at an anchorage, fine then you need to buy it, but understand that costs you money and it costs you performance.

I am not sure where
Others would rather spend $10-20K to save a few hours on the genny
comes from? A 1000 watt solar system on a seawind 1160 wont cost anything like that - less than 5K including MPPT controller, fully fitted. And thats less - way less - than a Fischer Panda gen set.

But each to his/her own. Once you drop anchor in a nice little spot - say Lady Musgrave you see lots of people doing on boats with less luxury and convenience than I have on the Seawind XL, and some with more. At the end of the day, getting out and doing it is the most important thing for me. So I do it on a boat I can afford and one that is very easy to live with and sails nicely. Certainly not the fastest out there, even on multis waterline length counts so I start from a little disadvantage ona 10.85 metre boat. But good sails and a light boat balance that out somewhat.

We have been away for 9 weeks without visiting a marina, and live pretty well, we dehydrate a lot of food before we go, we get meat laser cut and vacuum bagged, we have fun and don't go without much. Its all good.

just remember Newick's law - Price Performance Comfort - pick any two you like.

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Old 23-10-2014, 18:25   #167
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Re: Scarlet's Annapolis Review

Great post Factor,thanks

Or Dick Newick's original Law of multihull boatbuilding: Light, Strong, Cheap, pick two, because you aren't going to get all three.
When boat buyers are evaluating some of these boats, it pays to keep the boatbuilding Law in mind, as there is never, repeat, NEVER an exception. (Unless someone is pricing at giveaway prices, and how often do we see that?

Re to gennie or not to gennie, I am seriously considering using 2 x Honda 2000i's piggybacked to run a small portable AC and the electric Bauer dive compressor as well as battery charging when solar can't keep up in cloudy conditions. They put out 4 kW continuous for very little fuel, are quiet, portable, don't shake the boat & with two I have redundancy. And for two, still about an order of magnitude less expensive than a diesel genset and only 40 kg. Only downside is storing petrol in containers, but in a vented locker should be OK. And petrol is much more available than diesel where we will be in the South Pacific.

Seems like a good compromise to me, and I'm surprised more cruisers don't seem to be using this approach, so are there any downsides that I'm missing?

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Old 23-10-2014, 19:39   #168
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Re: Scarlet's Annapolis Review

Thanks factor.. there was a lot to learn in that post. i think you greatly summed up my feeling about the Isara. in fact, my husband and I talked about it when we saw it in Miami, and I seriously wonder why that boat doesn't collapse in on itsef. All that heavy hardwood... and fixtures. Seems too much for the hulls. it's as if the 'designer' and the 'architect' never met.

I'm also surprised you were so kind regarding the Balance 451... as it does not satisfy ANY of newick's law...

anyway.. again, it was really great to hear you speak. I wish you hadn't had to rush off. I really appreciated the time you gave us, though. it was very educational...

Thanks again for your post...good stuff in there.
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Old 23-10-2014, 20:17   #169
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Re: Scarlet's Annapolis Review

Thanks for the kind words Scarlet, though ultimately listening to "experts" be they at seminars on on the web is never a substitute for just getting out and doing it.
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Old 24-10-2014, 02:22   #170
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Re: Scarlet's Annapolis Review

I was on board that outremer 45 here in the canaries the other day. Lovely boat and family. I believe it will be for sale in Aus in a year and priced quite a bit less than the 5x?
In comparison to our L380 and L400 it has a bit less amenities, storage, living space, facilities, except the foredeck tramp which is huge and a great place for kids to bounce around!
Some things I've become accustomed to that I wouldn't like to live with are the lack of helm seating for watch keeping, all lines running to the helm, such as halyards, as well as the lack of galley space and storage, but the obvious upside is speed, I'd guess at least 25% faster than what we are used to if not overweight and less expensive on diesel, but that would soon be gobbled up in extra marina and haul out fees.
Finishes were excellent quality and outremer have stepped up with the decor, with enough nice timber laminate to lose the all white interior bare bones feel of earlier designs.
The cockpit seating and table works very well and has a nice feel.
I didn't like the bridge deck saloon and windows design originally but now I think it's a very sexy design and should age very well. You know how sometimes a car manufacturers does something a bit radical and on first look it might seem a bit off...
So for us the L400 fits, but then we have become accustomed to the space and amenities and load carrying capacity, as well as the speed. But for anyone who could do without a few things the outremer 45 should be close to the top of their short list...
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Old 25-10-2014, 20:15   #171
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Re: Scarlet's Annapolis Review

Originally Posted by Factor View Post
I have cruised extensively on my boat and have 350 hours on the engines after 5 years...The whole point of a sailing boat for me is to sail.
Outstanding numbers (no surprise, of course) and we're 100% in agreement on the "whole point"!

We're just under 1000 hours on the engines in just over 4 years, altho >600hrs of that was clocked up during our delivery voyage. The delivery was just under 14000nm so even those 600hrs reflected very little motoring.

Originally Posted by Factor View Post
So no gen set needed.
When we were vessel shopping, that was our feeling too. In the result for us, however, our GFC-bargain vessel came with an included genset...and we're now very happy that it did. The genset was a god-send during our delivery voyage, before our solar panels were installed, and even now it is very handy indeed. We have neither air con nor a washing machine, but our two frigs and a freezer use reasonable power no matter what the state of the sunshine...and when the auto-pilot and chart plotter(s) are included, (especially when we're passage making at night) the genset is our ready and fairly economical (1L/hr diesel) back-stop to ensure our batteries are always treated kindly.

Please pardon the thread drift for that little rave...

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