Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-08-2008, 03:51   #121
Marine Service Provider
 
fastcat435's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Amstelveen Netherlands
Boat: FastCat 445 Green Motion
Posts: 1,649
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to fastcat435
Quote:
Originally Posted by ireaney View Post
Well said Gord, I am getting fed up of someone discussing their dirty washing in public, this is not the idea of the forum, as we have to read all this to get to the information that we want.
Case Closed and besides this thread was on saving weight.

Greetings to all.

Gideon
__________________

__________________
fastcat435 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 08:22   #122
cruiser
 
BigCat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 765
Link for lithium batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiesuede View Post
It's not just 'Fully Charging' that represents the problem, it's the entire cycling memory. If you don't automate the recharge cycle to start recharging at the same points of discharge, you're going to shorten the life of a deep cycle AGM battery rather noticably. A real PITA if you ask me. When considering battery life (without even getting into the weight savings) the additional cost for Lithium Polymer seems more than reasonable imo. Under no circumstances would I allow a non polymer Lithium ion battery anywhere near a boat though. But the polymer lithium Phosphate & Magnesium's are actually a decent deal when looking at a 'non-spill' , 'non gaseous' battery.
Can you give us a link or two for these batteries? I can't seem to find any. Thanks!
__________________

__________________
BigCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 08:36   #123
Marine Service Provider
 
fastcat435's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Amstelveen Netherlands
Boat: FastCat 445 Green Motion
Posts: 1,649
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to fastcat435
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Can you give us a link or two for these batteries? I can't seem to find any. Thanks!
Lithium Phosphate Battery - Energy Storage Systems

Saft web site


greetings
__________________
fastcat435 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 08:58   #124
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
The fact that Gideon is representing SF or not, from when on, etc. does not really matter.

yeloya
Actually, in the long run, it does. IMO.
__________________
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 09:41   #125
CF Adviser
Moderator Emeritus
 
Hud3's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Virginia
Boat: Island Packet 380, now sold
Posts: 8,929
Images: 49
But not in a thread on the subject of "Saving Weight". Let's all try to keep on topic, please.
__________________
Hud
Hud3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 10:38   #126
Registered User
 
Aussiesuede's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC & Seattle, WA
Posts: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Can you give us a link or two for these batteries? I can't seem to find any. Thanks!
The Valence Batteries Gideon referenced are currently the best choice imo and they are Lithium Phosphate Polymer. There are benefits to using Lithium Magnesium Polymer in a larger custom battery bank (ie, full electric instead of hybrid) but the phosphate's are better in the smaller form factors we're accustomed to. The best of the standard form factor magnesium's I've found are the 'Torqueedo's' . The real benefit to magnesium vs phosphate is they don't 'self discharge' when not used. Sit em for a year unused and the power that remains stored is above 90%.

torqeedo: Produktbeschreibung

Personally I think the future lay in magnesium chloride batteries which use seawater as their electrolyte, therefore reducing weight by over 70%. The problem with this technology is the current state of the precious metals market. It's simply too expensive to produce using silver as the anode, therefore there are no takers to develop the technology, even though it's fared well in field tests and has been put to limited use with success in the defense industry.

NRDC Technology offer-MAGNESIUM* SILVER CHLORIDE SEA WATER ACTIVATED BATTERY

Obviously eliminating onboard storage of electrolyte would provide the greatest weight savings...
__________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. - (George Carlin)
Aussiesuede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 10:53   #127
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: North Carolina
Boat: 44 footer
Posts: 923
I've been doing some searching around... Haven't found a whole lot that suggests putting lead acids in the living space is overly dangerous. (Heck, my starting battery is under the bottom step of the companionway. A whole 10 inches away from the berths... for what, 47 years? )

Been pondering mounting the batteries in a "dorade" box of sorts. Even if things go inverted, the lid would become a catch pan... still vented.
__________________
Zach is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 11:02   #128
cruiser
 
BigCat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 765
Torqueedo and Valence batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiesuede View Post
The Valence Batteries Gideon referenced are currently the best choice imo and they are Lithium Phosphate Polymer. There are benefits to using Lithium Magnesium Polymer in a larger custom battery bank (ie, full electric instead of hybrid) but the phosphate's are better in the smaller form factors we're accustomed to. The best of the standard form factor magnesium's I've found are the 'Torqueedo's' . The real benefit to magnesium vs phosphate is they don't 'self discharge' when not used. Sit em for a year unused and the power that remains stored is above 90%.

torqeedo: Produktbeschreibung
So, in Torqueedo batteries, apparently, you are limited to a maximum of 332 amp hours at 24 volts for a cost of $2,800, if I correctly understand this link: Torqeedo POWER 26-77 UI BATTERY AND ACCESSORIES (207-2203)

I haven't come upon any pricing for Valence batteries. Where do you buy them?
__________________
BigCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 11:03   #129
cruiser
 
BigCat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 765
Venting batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach View Post
I've been doing some searching around... Haven't found a whole lot that suggests putting lead acids in the living space is overly dangerous. (Heck, my starting battery is under the bottom step of the companionway. A whole 10 inches away from the berths... for what, 47 years? )

Been pondering mounting the batteries in a "dorade" box of sorts. Even if things go inverted, the lid would become a catch pan... still vented.
The USCG requires a 3" vent for commercial boats' battery compartments.
__________________
BigCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 11:49   #130
Registered User
 
Aussiesuede's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC & Seattle, WA
Posts: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post


So, in Torqueedo batteries, apparently, you are limited to a maximum of 332 amp hours at 24 volts for a cost of $2,800, if I correctly understand this link: Torqeedo POWER 26-77 UI BATTERY AND ACCESSORIES (207-2203)

I haven't come upon any pricing for Valence batteries. Where do you buy them?
To my understanding, Valence currently has no distribution network and all purchases are factory direct. Gideon can comment better on this as he's purchased quite a few of them. The last price point I'm aware of is about a year old and it was about $1500 /unit. Again, Gideon would offer a better idea of current costs (if he's allowed to disclose it). Make no bones about it, they are NOT cheap. Ones primary goal would have to be weight and space savings, as primary at this point. Considering that Valence has just received a $70million & $20 million contract for dedicated commercial electric vehicles, we should finally start to see the prices drop a bit (but are likely realistically about 3 years away from any significant reductions imo)

Their batteries are on average double the capacity @ 2/3rds the weight of lead acid. With an estimated recharge capacity of 2000 cycles (10 year replacement schedule) @ Full capacity, which is another of it's benefits (the battery performance does not degrade with usage like lead acid).
__________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. - (George Carlin)
Aussiesuede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 12:14   #131
Registered User
 
ldrhawke's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St. Augustine, Florida
Boat: C&C 40
Posts: 193
Images: 7
Send a message via AIM to ldrhawke
It looks like it loses 4% of capacity per year.

Quote:
Normally, the capacity of a lithium battery system changes with the passing of time after its production. A lithium battery thereby loses around 4% of its capacity per annum. This ageing process is not significantly changed during use by the number of cycles. The batteries also do not have any memory effect. However, the lifetime of the battery changes dependent on the storage temperature and the charge state during storage. To increase the lifetime of the battery it should be discharged when possible if stored for a longer period of time and it should be stored in a cool environment. On the other hand, a long storage time in fully-charged state at high temperatures, e.g. over 105 F, reduces the lifetime of the battery.
IMHO, Saving 20 lbs per battery and paying and additional $700 to $1000 per battery over even AGM's to save 20 lbs, or 80 lbs in a four battery bank isn't a bargain. Plus it looks like it takes at least 6 hours to recharge, which means you will quickly eliminate any real dollar and weight savings in additional fuel consumed to charge the batteries.

I think a lot more analysis needs to be made and more questioned answered before I would even consider taking the next step in high tech batteries at this stage of development and pricing. There are a lot of easier ways to save 100 lbs.

Just jump up in the air every few minutes and take your body weight off the boat..............
__________________
ldrhawke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 12:31   #132
Registered User
 
Nordic cat's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Boat: FP Tobago 35
Posts: 721
Don't you need a special charger for the lithium batteries? Something with the maximum voltage I think.

Alan
__________________
Nordic cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 12:33   #133
cruiser
 
BigCat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 765
Quote:
Originally Posted by ldrhawke View Post
It looks like it loses 4% of capacity per year.



IMHO, Saving 20 lbs per battery and paying and additional $700 to $1000 per battery over even AGM's to save 20 lbs, or 80 lbs in a four battery bank isn't a bargain. Plus it looks like it takes at least 6 hours to recharge, which means you will quickly eliminate any real dollar and weight savings in additional fuel consumed to charge the batteries.

I think a lot more analysis needs to be made and more questioned answered before I would even consider taking the next step in high tech batteries at this stage of development and pricing. There are a lot of easier ways to save 100 lbs.

Just jump up in the air every few minutes and take your body weight off the boat..............
The bottom line for me is that we are best off with the old fashioned lead acid batteries, with water saver caps, as there are drawbacks to the AGM and Gel batteries besides price. See: Battery Accessories & Maintenance .
__________________
BigCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 12:35   #134
Registered User
 
Aussiesuede's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC & Seattle, WA
Posts: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
Don't you need a special charger for the lithium batteries? Something with the maximum voltage I think.

Alan
Yep, they do require a special lithium charger. Use a 'regular' charger and sit back for an impressive fireworks show...
__________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. - (George Carlin)
Aussiesuede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-08-2008, 12:47   #135
Registered User
 
Nordic cat's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Boat: FP Tobago 35
Posts: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussiesuede View Post
Yep, they do require a special lithium charger. Use a 'regular' charger and sit back for an impressive fireworks show...

Any reccomendations, or things to look out for?
__________________

__________________
Nordic cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
weight of a FastCat 455 fastcat435 Commercial Posts 2 08-08-2009 20:04
Saving Cecilia B Kai Nui The Sailor's Confessional 19 29-04-2008 07:37
Daylight Saving Time 2007 FrankZ Marine Electronics 18 19-02-2007 16:51
Saving for Sailing Jim H General Sailing Forum 16 31-10-2005 13:38
Daylight Saving Time GordMay General Sailing Forum 1 19-08-2005 22:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:51.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.