Saving weight - Page 4

freetime · 11-08-2008, 16:47

If i remember right.

In multihull magazine this spring... 2008 Catamaran Guide is in it.

Designer of FastCat is Angello AND Gideon...

Gludy · 12-08-2008, 01:58

This is the reply from Angello
"Hello Paul,

Congratulations on ordering a St Francis 50. Everyone I know that owns one
is delighted. I was at the Sydney Boatshow last week, and met Dave Wakeman,
the owner of Sirius which was on the show, having sailed her from South
Africa via Panama. He is delighted with the boat. A couple on months back I
sailed to Tonga and saw Tom Walker before leaving Opua, owner of Quantum
Leap (St F 48 no 1) who is still enjoying the boat hugely.

You have been misinformed. I am credited as designer of the African Fastcat
435 and 455, with my agreement. In addition to the acknowledgement on my website you can see my name credited on the Fastcat site also.

Kind Regards,
Angelo"

So it is clear that Angello does back the products of Gideon and that to me carries a lot of weight. It gives a lot of credibility to the Polars and performance claimed by Gideon. It also means that what I was told was totally untrue.

So I am left perplexed as to why the real world data that I am seeing does not back up the FastCat performance and why Gideon gets himself into so much hot water by also providing misinformation such as his St Francis dealership and using figures and claimed facts very loosely.

Surely the solution is to have real world verified data on the FastCat? The data I have seen from the latest owner and the Norway trip do not show a very fast boat. I would have expected to have faster trips with a St Francis.
The delivery trip from Africa to Europe does not make sense either - it was very slow. How about the owners of the other two FastCats giving their verdicts and performance figures?

44'cruisingcat · 12-08-2008, 02:31

The numbers quoted by Settingsail2009 for his trip to Norway on his Fastcat look quite acceptable to me. Particularly as he does mention that it's the first boat produced, and heavier than subsequent ones.

I know Bob Oram is constantly stressing how important it is to try to keep the boat light. As he says, the heavier the boat gets, the greater the loads on it, which requires more structural strength, which adds more weight, which requires a bigger rig, which increases the loads, which requires more strength.... it becomes a vicious circle.

fastcat435 · 12-08-2008, 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gludy

This is the reply from Angello
"Hello Paul,

Congratulations on ordering a St Francis 50. Everyone I know that owns one
is delighted. I was at the Sydney Boatshow last week, and met Dave Wakeman,
the owner of Sirius which was on the show, having sailed her from South
Africa via Panama. He is delighted with the boat. A couple on months back I
sailed to Tonga and saw Tom Walker before leaving Opua, owner of Quantum
Leap (St F 48 no 1) who is still enjoying the boat hugely.

You have been misinformed. I am credited as designer of the African Fastcat
435 and 455, with my agreement. In addition to the acknowledgement on my website you can see my name credited on the Fastcat site also.

Kind Regards,
Angelo"

So it is clear that Angello does back the products of Gideon and that to me carries a lot of weight. It gives a lot of credibility to the Polars and performance claimed by Gideon. It also means that what I was told was totally untrue.

So I am left perplexed as to why the real world data that I am seeing does not back up the FastCat performance and why Gideon gets himself into so much hot water by also providing misinformation such as his St Francis dealership and using figures and claimed facts very loosely.

Surely the solution is to have real world verified data on the FastCat? The data I have seen from the latest owner and the Norway trip do not show a very fast boat. I would have expected to have faster trips with a St Francis.
The delivery trip from Africa to Europe does not make sense either - it was very slow. How about the owners of the other two FastCats giving their verdicts and performance figures?

Hello Paul

The trip made for delivery to Madeira was under the strict order to deliver the boat in a near new condition. the skipper took that advice and only used the smallest sails when not pointing into the wind , the gennaker was not even used when the boat arrived .
Besides that the a lot of motoring took place since even a FastCat cannot go directly into the wind, ( that is a type of boat I would love to build) Also a good part of that trip is against currents.

In regards to the African Innovation sailing from IJmuiden to Stavanger doing an average of 8.1 knots with winds ranging from 4 to 15 knots at 30 to 60 degrees should tell you something regarding speed.

Greetings

Gideon

Gludy · 12-08-2008, 04:32

Gideon
I am trying to get to the root of the matter.

I would have expected a St Francis to do no less than the FastCat with the Norwegian trip.

Even you say that you will only get about 15% more than the St Francis and that is for a boat weighing about 50 per cent of what a St Francis does. My own preference is for a boat with all the space and comforts of a St Francis rather than the extra speed.

It would make sense that a lighter boat equals a faster boat - is there any information from the owners of St Francis? The owner we met in Amsterdam had never even sailed his boat in the months that he had claimed to have owned her. So how about the other owners?

fastcat435 · 12-08-2008, 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gludy

Gideon
I am trying to get to the root of the matter.

I would have expected a St Francis to do no less than the FastCat with the Norwegian trip.

Even you say that you will only get about 15% more than the St Francis and that is for a boat weighing about 50 per cent of what a St Francis does. My own preference is for a boat with all the space and comforts of a St Francis rather than the extra speed.

It would make sense that a lighter boat equals a faster boat - is there any information from the owners of St Francis? The owner we met in Amsterdam had never even sailed his boat in the months that he had claimed to have owned her. So how about the other owners?

Hallo Gludy

you are probably still jet lagged I am sure you mean the owners of FastCats in stead of St Francis.
I cannot speak for other owners of FastCats only for myself.
I am not interested in any comparisons between the St Francis and The Fastcats since these cats are completely different type of boats designed for different customers.
I think you have purchased a fantastic Cat and lets just leave it at that.
If we ever meet again while sailing I will be happy to do a little race with you if you like.

Warm Greetings and the best of pleasure with your new St Francis.
I noticed that you where asking if to use a 12 or a 220 volt watermaker.
My choice would be a 12 volt or even better a 24 volt unit since you do not have to start up your inverter or generator and that will be more economical or less noise
If I where to have build a new St Francis I would opt for 24 volts anyway
Less weight in the wiring .

Greetings

scarab · 12-08-2008, 06:24

I only sell to experienced sailors.

I'm sure Gideon didn't mean to react in such a way and it isn't true since he sold the Fastcat 435 ( # 3 ) to a Belgian couple with no sailing experience what so ever.
Frank ( the owner ) and his wife did a testsail with 2 guest on board.
The average true wind speed was 8.6 knots.

On the picture on the left you see ( difficult to see ) the wind indicator which shows actual wind speed : 10 knots and average windspeed : 8.6 knots. In the middle the speed indicator shows : 8.3 knots On the right the wind direction ( 38 ° ? ) with app. windspeed : 14.3 Knts.
They reported that with 12 knots they managed 9.3 Knts.

Greetings,

Koen

fastcat435 · 12-08-2008, 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by scarab

I only sell to experienced sailors.

I'm sure Gideon didn't mean to react in such a way and it isn't true since he sold the Fastcat 435 ( # 3 ) to a Belgian couple with no sailing experience what so ever.
Frank ( the owner ) and his wife did a testsail with 2 guest on board.
The average true wind speed was 8.6 knots.

On the picture on the left you see ( difficult to see ) the wind indicator which shows actual wind speed : 10 knots and average windspeed : 8.6 knots. In the middle the speed indicator shows : 8.3 knots On the right the wind direction ( 38 ° ? ) with app. windspeed : 14.3 Knts.
They reported that with 12 knots they managed 9.3 Knts.

Greetings,

Koen

Hallo Koen there are always exceptions Like Frank and Martha in excellent physical health and having all the theoretical knowledge one can have .

Greetings

Gideon

Joli · 12-08-2008, 07:26

In cruising trim going upwind. In race trim we are 10-11 knots. Waterline is speed in all conditions.

Gludy · 12-08-2008, 08:45

"Hallo Koen there are always exceptions Like Frank and Martha in excellent physical health and having all the theoretical knowledge one can have ."

I never realised we were so ill !!! I must tell my partner that one she teaches tai Chi masters and manages that all day .......

I must also never read the 2 metre pile of sailing book and 20 off DVDs I have already accumulated on the subject to add to my extensive boating collection of over 100 books and almost every DVD out there.

Oh dear Gideon .... you do come out with some whoppers!!!

Gludy · 12-08-2008, 08:50

"They reported that with 12 knots they managed 9.3 Knts."

But I was doing better or equal to that in my test sails on the St Francis.

I am looking for evidence of how half the weight translates into much better speeds.

Gideon - i did mean FastCat owners that was a typo.

However St Francis agreed to put me in contact with any owner. What I am asking about are the other two FastCat owners out there - not for you to sepak for them but for them to speak for themselves. Owner reports are a very valuable source of advice, I am sure you would agree.

mikereed100 · 12-08-2008, 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joli

In cruising trim going upwind. In race trim we are 10-11 knots. Waterline is speed in all conditions.

Jeez Joli, what do you feed that thing?

If I were a member of the IOC I would want that boat drug-tested.

Mike

Keegan · 12-08-2008, 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gludy

"They reported that with 12 knots they managed 9.3 Knts."

But I was doing better or equal to that in my test sails on the St Francis.

I am looking for evidence of how half the weight translates into much better speeds.

Gideon - i did mean FastCat owners that was a typo.

However St Francis agreed to put me in contact with any owner. What I am asking about are the other two FastCat owners out there - not for you to sepak for them but for them to speak for themselves. Owner reports are a very valuable source of advice, I am sure you would agree.

Gludy:

So you bought a beautiful new St Francis cat and all you can seem to think about is a Fastcat, go figure

.

Gludy · 12-08-2008, 09:15

Not at all.

Its not to do with the boat.
My position is that a lower weight must equal a higher speed - that i have always accepted.

The FastCats are far lighter than the other boats I have tried and I am abit baffled as to why I cannot see the extra speed I would expect.

Its me just trying to understand the why and hows of the situation.

What i do not accept is that simply cutting weight always means extra speed - that is the subject of this thread.

sandy daugherty · 12-08-2008, 09:31

Gludy: you are coming accross as vengefully affronted and unreasonable. A hundred years ago someone selling a yacht at this level of the market was entitled to say no to a prospective client for any reason whatsoever, possibly even because he doesn't want a continuing relationship with him. A client responding as you have would have been dismissed as no more than a spurned lover*: "He is not acting as a gentleman should". In this era of political correctness people start web sites to vent their indignation, and perhaps don't realize how poorly their actions are perceived by readers. Please consider how you appear to us, give up justifying yourself, and enjoy your St Francis!

*"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!"

12-08-2008, 07:26	#54
Joli Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,202 Images: 6	Heavy boats do that... In cruising trim going upwind. In race trim we are 10-11 knots. Waterline is speed in all conditions.

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11-08-2008, 16:47	#46
freetime Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Boat: Looking for a Catamaran, new or used? I don´t know yet... Posts: 565	If i remember right. In multihull magazine this spring... 2008 Catamaran Guide is in it. Designer of FastCat is Angello AND Gideon...

12-08-2008, 01:58	#47
Gludy Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Brecon, Wales Boat: St Francis 50 on order Posts: 269	This is the reply from Angello "Hello Paul, Congratulations on ordering a St Francis 50. Everyone I know that owns one is delighted. I was at the Sydney Boatshow last week, and met Dave Wakeman, the owner of Sirius which was on the show, having sailed her from South Africa via Panama. He is delighted with the boat. A couple on months back I sailed to Tonga and saw Tom Walker before leaving Opua, owner of Quantum Leap (St F 48 no 1) who is still enjoying the boat hugely. You have been misinformed. I am credited as designer of the African Fastcat 435 and 455, with my agreement. In addition to the acknowledgement on my website you can see my name credited on the Fastcat site also. Kind Regards, Angelo" So it is clear that Angello does back the products of Gideon and that to me carries a lot of weight. It gives a lot of credibility to the Polars and performance claimed by Gideon. It also means that what I was told was totally untrue. So I am left perplexed as to why the real world data that I am seeing does not back up the FastCat performance and why Gideon gets himself into so much hot water by also providing misinformation such as his St Francis dealership and using figures and claimed facts very loosely. Surely the solution is to have real world verified data on the FastCat? The data I have seen from the latest owner and the Norway trip do not show a very fast boat. I would have expected to have faster trips with a St Francis. The delivery trip from Africa to Europe does not make sense either - it was very slow. How about the owners of the other two FastCats giving their verdicts and performance figures?

12-08-2008, 02:31	#48
44'cruisingcat Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,507 Images: 32	The numbers quoted by Settingsail2009 for his trip to Norway on his Fastcat look quite acceptable to me. Particularly as he does mention that it's the first boat produced, and heavier than subsequent ones. I know Bob Oram is constantly stressing how important it is to try to keep the boat light. As he says, the heavier the boat gets, the greater the loads on it, which requires more structural strength, which adds more weight, which requires a bigger rig, which increases the loads, which requires more strength.... it becomes a vicious circle.

12-08-2008, 04:32	#50
Gludy Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Brecon, Wales Boat: St Francis 50 on order Posts: 269	Gideon I am trying to get to the root of the matter. I would have expected a St Francis to do no less than the FastCat with the Norwegian trip. Even you say that you will only get about 15% more than the St Francis and that is for a boat weighing about 50 per cent of what a St Francis does. My own preference is for a boat with all the space and comforts of a St Francis rather than the extra speed. It would make sense that a lighter boat equals a faster boat - is there any information from the owners of St Francis? The owner we met in Amsterdam had never even sailed his boat in the months that he had claimed to have owned her. So how about the other owners?

12-08-2008, 06:24	#52
scarab Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wenduine, Belgium Boat: Hanse 371 Posts: 59 Images: 1	I only sell to experienced sailors. I'm sure Gideon didn't mean to react in such a way and it isn't true since he sold the Fastcat 435 ( # 3 ) to a Belgian couple with no sailing experience what so ever. Frank ( the owner ) and his wife did a testsail with 2 guest on board. The average true wind speed was 8.6 knots. On the picture on the left you see ( difficult to see ) the wind indicator which shows actual wind speed : 10 knots and average windspeed : 8.6 knots. In the middle the speed indicator shows : 8.3 knots On the right the wind direction ( 38 ° ? ) with app. windspeed : 14.3 Knts. They reported that with 12 knots they managed 9.3 Knts. Greetings, Koen

12-08-2008, 08:45	#55
Gludy Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Brecon, Wales Boat: St Francis 50 on order Posts: 269	"Hallo Koen there are always exceptions Like Frank and Martha in excellent physical health and having all the theoretical knowledge one can have ." I never realised we were so ill !!! I must tell my partner that one she teaches tai Chi masters and manages that all day ....... I must also never read the 2 metre pile of sailing book and 20 off DVDs I have already accumulated on the subject to add to my extensive boating collection of over 100 books and almost every DVD out there. Oh dear Gideon .... you do come out with some whoppers!!!

12-08-2008, 08:50	#56
Gludy Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Brecon, Wales Boat: St Francis 50 on order Posts: 269	"They reported that with 12 knots they managed 9.3 Knts." But I was doing better or equal to that in my test sails on the St Francis. I am looking for evidence of how half the weight translates into much better speeds. Gideon - i did mean FastCat owners that was a typo. However St Francis agreed to put me in contact with any owner. What I am asking about are the other two FastCat owners out there - not for you to sepak for them but for them to speak for themselves. Owner reports are a very valuable source of advice, I am sure you would agree.

12-08-2008, 09:15	#59
Gludy Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: Brecon, Wales Boat: St Francis 50 on order Posts: 269	Not at all. Its not to do with the boat. My position is that a lower weight must equal a higher speed - that i have always accepted. The FastCats are far lighter than the other boats I have tried and I am abit baffled as to why I cannot see the extra speed I would expect. Its me just trying to understand the why and hows of the situation. What i do not accept is that simply cutting weight always means extra speed - that is the subject of this thread.

12-08-2008, 09:31	#60
sandy daugherty Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Location: near Annapolis Boat: PDQ 36 "Page 83" Posts: 491	Gludy: you are coming accross as vengefully affronted and unreasonable. A hundred years ago someone selling a yacht at this level of the market was entitled to say no to a prospective client for any reason whatsoever, possibly even because he doesn't want a continuing relationship with him. A client responding as you have would have been dismissed as no more than a spurned lover: "He is not acting as a gentleman should". In this era of political correctness people start web sites to vent their indignation, and perhaps don't realize how poorly their actions are perceived by readers. Please consider how you appear to us, give up justifying yourself, and enjoy your St Francis! "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned!"