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Old 10-08-2008, 18:39   #31
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Does the 10% reduction in weight apply to monohulls as well? I'm curious if weight reduction reduces tiller loads...

I'm rather intrigued by the Ultralight Displacement Boats, like the Olson('s) and Merlin... and ever tempted by those speedy multi-hulls! Particularly on days when walking to windward would have been faster...
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Old 10-08-2008, 18:40   #32
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Folks, we need to calm down. First and foremost, the job of a salesman is to sell. The job of buyer is to exercise due diligence in the process. A good seller does his earnest best to be as honest as possible in excess of 90% of the time. MOST salesmen FAIL in this regards, and that's why only the best exceed that 90% thresh-hold. A diligent buyer does his earnest best to gather information from as many sources as possible and never fall so in love with the product being sold that he voluntarily leaves his common sense at the door. We ALL are adults and have been sold to our entire lives. Gideon appears to be one of the rare salespeople that has been able to at least hover @ the 90% thresh-hold, so I'd say expectations of that being 100% are unrealistic as that's an EXCEEDINGLY rare occurance in the world of sales and we ALL know it.

There is great benefit in having commercial vendors who take the time to be as forthcoming in general as Gideon has. Certainly part of that is good "Customer Relations" in hopes of providing positive exposure for the brand he represents, but all one needs to do is compare it to others attempts in this regards to garner an understanding of just how he should be judged. I'm pretty comfortable is saying he fares well in comparison, and suggest we not forget the basic parameters at play here. If you corner a cat, it's going to take on a defensive posture - NOT because it's a bad cat, but because it's cornered. It seems that there may be an attempt to paint Gideon into a corner that creates a no-win situation for all concerned.
You have an interesting perspective on ethics. If I interpreted your message correctly you believe it is just fine for a salesman to not tell the truth 10% of the time or more and that it is the buyers burden to figure out what is true and what is not. Just because many sales people do not tell the truth does not make it right. In fact, depending on what country you are from it can be down right illegal for a salesperson to lie during a sale. Many boat buyers are fairly new to sailing and cannot easily figure out false truths when buying a boat. Surveyors often miss important facts that could protect a buyer.

I thought Gideon was a manufacturer of boats with selling skills, not just a salesman. I really enjoy Gideons posts and I think he is on the cutting edge of cruising cat design and build. I believe he is a great contributor of ideas. I may even buy a boat from him some day. That being said, he makes many many claims and statements regarding his product and he is one of the few people on cruisers forum that come here in part to sell something to us, so I think it is fair game for people to ask him to back up his claims with fact. His boats cost many 100,000s of thousands of dollars and you cannot win the label of the Fastest Cruising Cat without someone trying to see if the emporer has no clothes on.
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Old 10-08-2008, 21:10   #33
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You have an interesting perspective on ethics. If I interpreted your message correctly you believe it is just fine for a salesman to not tell the truth 10% of the time or more and that it is the buyers burden to figure out what is true and what is not. Just because many sales people do not tell the truth does not make it right. .
I don't condone a salesperson 'not telling the truth'. I'm simply a realist and know that whenever someone has a vested interest in something, it's inevitable that they will sip the proverbial kool-aid. I don't think Gideon engages in purposeful deception in any regard. I simply think that sometimes he (like practically every other every other person with a vested interest in something) can tend towards seeing the roses in their garden and ignore the weeds. I don't think this is due in any part to 'deception' but rather what simply comes with the territory of having a vested interest. In this particular instance, I believe he acted as I described (a cornered cat). Justified? Probably not. Understandable reaction of an imperfect human? I think that's a lot more likely.

I'll describe a scenario that very well could be what occurred here (and just as likely be 1000 degrees off bas as many a armchair commentating often is):

You contact me, the dealer for Porshe's, for the potential to buy a 959 for your 20 year old son who is a professional cargo truck driver that has been involved in racing motorsports in one form or another since he was 12 years old. I think to myself, 'A 959 is a hell of a lot of car for a person that young, but as described to me, there may be circumstances that belay that fear since this 20 year old seems to be somewhat experienced with what would most concern me about the standard 20 year old in possession of a vehicle with so much power that there's a likliehood it would kill him.' So I agree to have you out for a test drive. It takes me less than 10 minutes with your son to recognise that my original fears likely have some merit, but here you have already come all this way - so what to do? Do I take you out to the countryside and say to your son 'Let her rip'? Or do I take you on a cursory test drive and then share with you that based on my experience, I'd have some concerns with selling you this vehicle? Of course the choice to purchase is up to you, but if I (as the seller) have an experience that has seen such scenarios prove deadly more times than not - at the very least, shouldn't I share that concern?

Again, I can easily be 1000 degree's off base here, but that was my first inclination when I read Gideon's commentary, and that estimation on my part is based on nothing more than the experience I've garnered in reading his responses on this forum. An aggressive sail plan on a light Cat is a recipe for disaster as the margin for error for poor seamanship is much smaller than otherwise. It's an equation I'd suggest ONLY for an experienced Cat sailor. No way to know what you're dealing with until it is front of you. I don't think anyone would promote someone going through both the expense and effort necessary to take a test sail under such a scenario as described unless they felt there was a chance that said person actually represented a truly realistic candidate. If you are the one 'selling' it's very likely the vested interest you have will have mitigated the original 'cautionary' concerns that first popped in your head. But is it really ill will if you recognise early on that the fit just isn't a good one? That's my perception of what happened here, and I think Gludy was given a 'cursory' test drive as a result...
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Old 10-08-2008, 23:08   #34
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Thread Drift...

Ladies & Gentlemen,

This thread is on the moderator watch list.

The topic here is weight savings - let's drop the personal bits and for sure we really need to stop the salesman's ethics discussion.

It won't end nicely...
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Old 11-08-2008, 01:09   #35
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Claims for boat speeds resulting from weight reduction were being made and I put Gideon to proof that such claims are true.

I was simply pointing out that to make such weight saving claims providing such speed improvements seem counter to the data available for the FastCat and my own limited experience of the boat.

Such comments go to the heart of the topic of the thread.
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Old 11-08-2008, 05:26   #36
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Cut the handles off the toothbrushes !!???
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Half the handle, yep! Now THAT'S compulsive.
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Old 11-08-2008, 14:01   #37
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I have over 10000 Nm experience as a skipper with the 48 and over 70000 with the FastCat

Greetings

Gideon
70000 Nmiles is a looong way Around 20 times across the Atlantic. I know you have delivered one boat personally to Europe via the US, so all the rest has been from Holland and Durban??

Not important really, but just another piece of the "Fastcat Story" that might be exxagerated a bit.


The issue is not whether 10% are lies, even though some can accept this. I just feel that someone who consistently manipulates and embellishes the facts loses all credibility. Once or twice can be mistakes, but I start to doubt everything once I lose confidence in a person.

Knowingly making false claims and statements is lying in my book.

How many of the other "facts" Gideon has posted can we believe or disbelieve? Many people have not got the technical knowledge and background to be able to correctly "filter" the more technical stuff, so I think it is positive that there is some scepticism, and that a vendor should be able to prove his claims when challenged.

I look forward to hearing Gideons responses to Gludys posts here on CF, because Gludy only reacted to Gideons claims, and as such doesn't have a hidden agenda.


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Old 11-08-2008, 15:14   #38
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Yesterday on the thread on my new SF 50 you advertised the fact that you have a 48 for sale - I quote:-
"4 years old 8000 NM a demonstrator and I supervised the build to keep her light and in the Netherlands fully equipped not Spartan at all."

Now you say you have done 10,000 miles in her - when did you add the 2000 miles"Can only have been in the last 24 hours? If that is the case then you are right the SF 48 is a faster boat than the SF50 because at 2000 miles a day it puts all to shame and is a lot faster than any cat out there including the FastCat

All I am asking is that you moderate your claims and that you understand why, in my opinion, you are creating a credibility gap.

I am not trying to trap you or in anyway get at you - its just that I find it difficult to swallow some of the things you say and therefore have to disregard just about all you say and that is a shame.
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Old 11-08-2008, 15:18   #39
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I don't doubt that Gideon has sailed the miles he claims and I don't doubt the speed of the Fastcat. The designer is Angelo and the published polars are beyond reproach. If you want actual passage speeds look at rallies like th ARC and races like a Mac. How fast you can sail is fun bar room talk but seeing talking speed when power reaching in light ship condition in flat water is not really relevant.

Whatever happened between Gideon and Gludy is between Gideon and Gludy. I wish them both well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
70000 Nmiles is a looong way Around 20 times across the Atlantic. I know you have delivered one boat personally to Europe via the US, so all the rest has been from Holland and Durban??

Not important really, but just another piece of the "Fastcat Story" that might be exxagerated a bit.


The issue is not whether 10% are lies, even though some can accept this. I just feel that someone who consistently manipulates and embellishes the facts loses all credibility. Once or twice can be mistakes, but I start to doubt everything once I lose confidence in a person.

Knowingly making false claims and statements is lying in my book.

How many of the other "facts" Gideon has posted can we believe or disbelieve? Many people have not got the technical knowledge and background to be able to correctly "filter" the more technical stuff, so I think it is positive that there is some scepticism, and that a vendor should be able to prove his claims when challenged.

I look forward to hearing Gideons responses to Gludys posts here on CF, because Gludy only reacted to Gideons claims, and as such doesn't have a hidden agenda.


cheers

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Old 11-08-2008, 16:27   #40
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"I don't doubt that Gideon has sailed the miles he claims and I don't doubt the speed of the Fastcat. The designer is Angelo and the published polars are beyond reproach."

I think you will find that Angello will not allow his name to be put as the designer of the FastCat. As I understand it he is very firm on this. I would be happy to post a public email to him on this matter if you wish.

Where did you find the information that he is the designer? This is a very important point indeed. Is anyone claiming that he is the designer?

I do not understand how you can accept the cruising figures when two differing figures have been given within 24 hours for the same boat?

The matter is not between myself and Gideon. The matter is not even a personal one. It is about the facts of performance V weight reduction claims that are being made by Gideon.

I am questioning those figures because I honestly believe they are misleading. It is the responsibility of those providing figures to support them with evidence.
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Old 11-08-2008, 16:33   #41
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I have just checked the FastCat site to find this quote

"At the helm of this sleek Angelo Lavranos design you will be amazed at the ease with which you can cruise along in the mid to high teens"

I have clearly been told that Angello refuses to have his name used in connection with the FastCat so I am sure that Gideon would want this matter cleared up once and for all.

I want the matter cleared up as I have two contradicting pieces of information so I am going to email Angello and ask him with the result whatever that is to be published here.

My interest is only in obtaining the truth currently I do not know it.
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Old 11-08-2008, 16:40   #42
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As far as weight goes... are there guidelines and rules of thumb about moving the weight from the ends to the middle?

I've always heard "it's a good idea" but never heard of any benchmarks.

(Toying with a V-berth removal... or at least acting like theres a mast in the middle of it with the chain locker way down low and holding tank up in the bow.)
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Old 11-08-2008, 16:43   #43
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This email has been sent to Angello
"Angello
I have just ordered a Saint Francis 50 which is a design of yours.

I have been told that you do not allow the Fastcat 435 and 455 to carry your name as the designer.

Is this true or have I been given false information?

I need to know so that I can publish the answer on a forum.

There is a link to the FastCat on your own web site which would indicate that you do indeed approve these boats as your design.

I look forward to your response."

I will publish the answer from Angello.
It looks to me that I may have been given misleading information on this matter and I am just as keen to defend Gideon on this point as I am to disagree with him on other points. I am only after the truth.

Angello has a very good trustworthy name in the business and if he has approved the polars etc then that would carry a lot of weight with me.
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Old 11-08-2008, 16:44   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gludy View Post
"I don't doubt that Gideon has sailed the miles he claims and I don't doubt the speed of the Fastcat. The designer is Angelo and the published polars are beyond reproach."

I think you will find that Angello will not allow his name to be put as the designer of the FastCat. As I understand it he is very firm on this. I would be happy to post a public email to him on this matter if you wish.

Where did you find the information that he is the designer? This is a very important point indeed. Is anyone claiming that he is the designer?

I do not understand how you can accept the cruising figures when two differing figures have been given within 24 hours for the same boat?

The matter is not between myself and Gideon. The matter is not even a personal one. It is about the facts of performance V weight reduction claims that are being made by Gideon.

I am questioning those figures because I honestly believe they are misleading. It is the responsibility of those providing figures to support them with evidence.
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Old 11-08-2008, 16:46   #45
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I know the SF 50 has a lot of its weight in the middle and that it moved the engines nearer to the centre compared to the SF 48 and claimed a speed increase.
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