Sailing a Proa

[Joli]

Originally Posted by jjtctaylor

Hey,

I'll need a crew in a couple of years,.... engineering is ongoing for structural (so it doesn't flip over --- ha-ha).

See 18 metre Visionarry

That's mine work in progress. Will need experienced crew to move to US east coast from South America where fabricated..... can take the long route.....

AND I live in Ohio,..... yes the "enema" land. Hopefully we all don't qualify for that characterization.

JT

I wish you luck with the build and a safe journey.

[roblanford]

JT,
I lived in Buffalo NY for a couple years and was on the receiving end of that joke. Just recycled it for Joli's benifit. Nothing serious.
I am more than a little bit jealous about your 18m harryproa.
I will crew for you. WOW what a great boat. Yours is the one that had all the great cad rendering? VERY COOL!!!!! Do you have any other info online? Boy I shure would like to see the look on those idiot monomaraner faces when you pull into home port.

[Steve Rust]

Originally Posted by Joli

Item 3, not really, most of the deaths in this area while sailing have been a result of drowning or exposure. I know of two monos that sank in the past 25 years of racing. One boat filled with water and went down when the foreward hatch was left open. One person died, the water was very cold and help was slow getting to them. Another boat broke up in heavy seas, it was a repaired boat where a tree had fallen on it, no one died, they were in life rafts. Again, very cold water.

Most of the accidents (maybe 15 to 25 in 20 years) I know about have been flipped multis, I know of two who died, exposure/drowning inside the overturned hull. This is what I see happening in this area. This is how my opinion has been shaped. Maybe its different in other areas.

Jesus, Joli what is your sailing area? Cape Horn? In 23 years of sailing on Lake Superior I can't recall any monohulls sinking or multihulls capsizing here. I am sure there have been a few but off the cuff I can't recall any. I have not even managed to flip my overcanvassed 17 ft daysailor yet and I have had it out in 20+ knot winds several times.
Now you did not just pull these stats out of your ass did you? Or are you talking about beach cats and racing multihulls and then assuming that cruising multihulls capsize with the same frequency? I do not get to concerned about the antics and the "acrobatics" of the racing crowd in reguards to saftey of my own cruising trimaran because they have little in common. When you hear about the keels falling off racing monohulls and the hulls delaminating on Volvo 70's do you worry about your own cruising boat falling apart or it's keel coming off? Probably not, and with good reason. Some of you monohull guys seem to want to paint the racing and cruising multihulls with the same brush. It's apples and oranges.

I think proas do require a more skilled experienced hand at the helm. That does not make them unsafe. For the same reason you don't give a sixteen year old kid a Ford GT40. It is not the car that's unsafe.

[jjtctaylor]

When we get the boat to the US East Coast, depending on relations with Rob for builders, licensing and other business details, I may bring it up to the Annapolis boat show for rides. If successful then a good way to share successes or issues among the supporters, curiosity seekers and disbelievers. Can only dispel misunderstanding with experience and knowledge. Agree the industry changes slowly with centuries of past experience, so new experiences will take time to assimilate into the seafaring ways. Certainly proas may not afford all the answers for changes in sea state but we'll try something new to expand some thought into possibilites.

If we get there with our keels right side down...... come on over and we'll hoist a few for caring to disagree ! Everyone else sign up for crew list....

JT

[jjtctaylor]

I haven't posted anything recently for the winged proa. The LW hull is finished design, as well as beams. Work in progress on the wing bearings from Kaydon. Next will be to complete the structural tie-in from wings to fore/aft to the beams and port starboard to the hulls. Takes some clever carbon truss structurs to make it all work. The Rhino file needs proper scaling to build from. Not a big deal but needs to be done.

Most fun lately is aux propulsion...... Joli and you probably have read info on Re-e-power. Kevin Plank is really busy making those power units which may be a good fit for us as a retractable pod power source. Combine that with a modest genset, vastly improved batteries from Firefly due for delivery August 08 and we may have a winner. I will not argue sugar-plum fairy-land that electrics are a direct replacement for larger horsepower. But I will get more manuever torque in those pesky tight marinas and modest high end performance. I am not dreaming 7 knots against a 50 knot headwind. All that just depends on planned needs. Wings have the advantage of closer reach angles and on-the-nose is not the desired attack angle for a proa anyway, right ?

I do have scaled interior layouts maybe Rob will post in his next update. Galley up and down.

[Eleven]

Novice Input - Cats were new a while back. Keels are falling off Cruising Mono's as costs are pushed down. (Isle of White race). People drown falling off mono's with their flies open because you can't pee at thirty degrees on a roller coaster in a two foot box.
See the thread on SF sailing at thirty degrees heel (search 'sweetie'). Anyone brought up to sail like that will not survive on a cat.
Note: Modern broad mono's will NOT self right when inverted.
Also - please be grown up with your comments. An exchange of views may only confirm your own opinion but not everybody's.
Thanks for a good discussion of a new style of boat.
I'm a cat-o-phile because tri's are more expensive for the same accomodation and I'm not into mono's because I like to walk around my home without holding on all the time.
Lots of interesting discussion too on cats with mono's in heavy weather. Cats drag drogues and go to sleep, mono's plug on because they can't stop in heavy weather. So mono's arrive first and swap stories of how bad it was.
I'd rather arrive than travel in hope!

[Joli]

Originally Posted by jjtctaylor

When we get the boat to the US East Coast, depending on relations with Rob for builders, licensing and other business details, I may bring it up to the Annapolis boat show for rides. If successful then a good way to share successes or issues among the supporters, curiosity seekers and disbelievers. Can only dispel misunderstanding with experience and knowledge. Agree the industry changes slowly with centuries of past experience, so new experiences will take time to assimilate into the seafaring ways. Certainly proas may not afford all the answers for changes in sea state but we'll try something new to expand some thought into possibilites.

If we get there with our keels right side down...... come on over and we'll hoist a few for caring to disagree ! Everyone else sign up for crew list....

JT

JT, like I said earlier good luck with the build and safe voyage.

My comments were made based on the numbers published by the designer and I think they are fair statements based on those numbers. D/L is 24 very light, SA/D is 33 very powered up. It will fly a hull in 15 true or 25 ap so I assume the boat must be actively sailed at or near that wind speed.

Can you comment further?

Fair winds, Joli

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Joli

Most of the accidents (maybe 15 to 25 in 20 years) I know about have been flipped multis, I.

name at least two

[Joli]

Originally Posted by Factor

name at least two

I posted one link to an article (see post 13) If you want I'll post an article from the Trans Erie where the R33 stuffed it in moderate condiditons. How many would you like to read about? Maybe just read about the B to G Race?

The Harryproa is being marketed as a cruising boat but has some pretty pumped up mumbers (listed above). Can the average guy sail it? I've asked JT to comment, maybe he will, maybe he won't.

My beef is not the boat but the marketing, just like the Reynolds 33 was marketed as a family friendly coastal cruisers. The R33 is a lot of things, fun being one of them, but it is not a boat for the average guy to buy and take his family cruising.

Factor, you don't need my permision to do anything and I don't need your permission to express my opinion.

Fair winds!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Joli

JT, like I said earlier good luck with the build and safe voyage.

My comments were made based on the numbers published by the designer and I think they are fair statements based on those numbers. D/L is 24 very light, SA/D is 33 very powered up. It will fly a hull in 15 true or 25 ap so I assume the boat must be actively sailed at or near that wind speed.

Can you comment further?

Fair winds, Joli

It will fly a hull in 15 knots TWS? What are you basing this gem on? Just another of your baseless assumptions? Are you aware that the vast majority of the boat's displacement is in the windward hull? Did you happen to see what the windspeed was in the video? Here's a clue - by your reckoning the hull should have been flying, but - surprise, surprise, it wasn't.

[Whimsical]

Joli
Both you and Rob Denny are active on sailing anarchy so why not run your concerns past him.
I look forward to the discussion.
Mike

[jjtctaylor]

Hi Joli,

D/L is a funny number for a proa. What do you use for length ? Same as calculating performance on cats anyway....

But if we use the LW hull at 60 feet then 24 is about right. Of course that is part of the beauty of an HP design. Not sooo much weight unless we go down the spiral of "stuff" 6T light load is our guess. Full cruising, all tanks full, and 6 PAX looks like 7.5T.

SA for wings is about 600 sq ft. I won't argue the merits of wing performance on this thread. Everyone had their chance looong ago.....

If the wings were no better than cloth then we end up with a SA/D of about 18. Medium cruiser stuff. WE'll see if the studies other have done bear out the predicted level of output similar to 900 sq ft. The problem is the reynolds number is large and thus a lot of extrapolation of low air speed over a large wing may not match the math. Class C cats move fast enough to create their own virtual wind. I am not moving that fast.

Can it blow over, you betcha ! No different than any fool that leaves up full sail in 50 knots. Wings require the same due diligence as any other sailing craft. Just a lot easier to reef, just adjust the angle of attack a few degrees. At 0 degrees AOA (vaning into the wind) the rig will have no greater wind drag than a similar sized supported rig.

Any reasonable rig can do well in a strong breeze. The trick with wings is they keep their shape and AOA in 4 knots. MY sails on my mono just luff around in this kind of light air.

You should send your suggestions and issues to Rob Denney. He would be pleased to explain what works and what doesn't and why. A winged craft is certainly experimental, even for Rob.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by roblanford

Joli,
Have you read the latest Pardy novel: "I crapped in a bucket, threw it over the side and it made port ahead of me?"

ROFLMAO!!!

[Joli]

Originally Posted by jjtctaylor

Hi Joli,

D/L is a funny number for a proa. What do you use for length ? Same as calculating performance on cats anyway....

But if we use the LW hull at 60 feet then 24 is about right. Of course that is part of the beauty of an HP design. Not sooo much weight unless we go down the spiral of "stuff" 6T light load is our guess. Full cruising, all tanks full, and 6 PAX looks like 7.5T.

SA for wings is about 600 sq ft. I won't argue the merits of wing performance on this thread. Everyone had their chance looong ago.....

If the wings were no better than cloth then we end up with a SA/D of about 18. Medium cruiser stuff. WE'll see if the studies other have done bear out the predicted level of output similar to 900 sq ft. The problem is the reynolds number is large and thus a lot of extrapolation of low air speed over a large wing may not match the math. Class C cats move fast enough to create their own virtual wind. I am not moving that fast.

Can it blow over, you betcha ! No different than any fool that leaves up full sail in 50 knots. Wings require the same due diligence as any other sailing craft. Just a lot easier to reef, just adjust the angle of attack a few degrees. At 0 degrees AOA (vaning into the wind) the rig will have no greater wind drag than a similar sized supported rig.

Any reasonable rig can do well in a strong breeze. The trick with wings is they keep their shape and AOA in 4 knots. MY sails on my mono just luff around in this kind of light air.

You should send your suggestions and issues to Rob Denney. He would be pleased to explain what works and what doesn't and why. A winged craft is certainly experimental, even for Rob.

As you mentioned I based my d/l estimate on the longer hull. I figured thats really the hull doing the work. A d/l of 24 is very light and you are going to have a SA/D that will give it plenty of punch in the light air.

I like the wing concept and recently saw the tri in San Diego that was written about extensively. I would think for a proa it makes sense.

I fully understand your not going carry excess sail creating a capsize condiditon but here is a scenario I can see occurring. If you have a moment would you be kind enough to comment.

A couple are making a 4 day jump, they are sailing with just white sails, 155 twa in 16~19 tws. The boat is under auto, the aws is ~10, the awa is ~65, bs is 12 to 13. The wife is off watch and sleeping, the husband is in the galley. No problems, everything fine. Then the ap fails, the boat turns to port and the aws jumps to 32. What happens? Is the rig self unloading? Is there an auto release for the sheet? Certainly the wing is self unloading since angle of attack changes but not for a soft sail. How do you deal with this situation?

Or another scenario: Same couple, working upwind, tws 10 to 12, bs 10 aws is low 20's. Instead of the ap failing a puff of 18 hits. Boat speed goes to 13 and aws is now 31. If 25 is the capsize threshold what happens? The wing is not self unloading in this instance.

It looks like the boat must be actively sailed 100% of the time and we both know that is impossible for a short handed cruising boat.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

It will fly a hull in 15 knots TWS? What are you basing this gem on?

These are the numbers from the designer, (15 tws plus 10 bs equals ~25 aws). The recomendation is to reef at 20 aws.