Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 08-12-2007, 12:44   #76
Registered User
 
multihullsailor6's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cruising in the SUN! Cruising towards Malta.
Boat: 37' Oldenziel cat
Posts: 442
Alan,

My point is that I do not want any kind of underwater appendix sticking out of a hull which, in the case of a collision with a floating UFO (Underwater Floating Object) could create a serious leakage point. Instead the lifting propulsion system should be fitted to the aft cross beam area.
I speak from recent (lucky) experience, on a cat we hit a UFO, might have been a sleeping seal, doing 12-14kts which ripped out the windward rudder downhaul and ended our regatta - luckily the daggerboard was up!

Roger
__________________

__________________
multihullsailor6 is offline  
Old 08-12-2007, 17:15   #77
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,452
Images: 69
I'd say your idea of motoring in only one direction is good, and outboards would be the simplest method of having a fully retractible drive. You could also look at Fastcat435's retractible electric drives.

A friend is building a similar boat to mine, but using e-power drives ( RE-E-POWER ) with a compact 6kva genset, and (IIRC) a 400 amp hour battery bank. He's building the drives into folding arms.

I'm sure Rob Denney has answers to your questions.
__________________

__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline  
Old 09-12-2007, 19:08   #78
Senior Cruiser
 
mikereed100's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Santa Barbara
Boat: 46' custom cat
Posts: 1,571
Images: 2
44,

It will be interesting to see what kind of performance your friend gets with the re-e-power motors. I looked at them myself but concluded they would be a bit too small for my cat. Hope they work for your buddy. Putting them on folding arms like the Fastcat is brilliant.

Mike
__________________
mikereed100 is offline  
Old 31-01-2008, 06:38   #79
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 135
G'day,

Fun thread. Thanks for all the support. I was not aware that so many experienced cat people were so enthusiastic about the boats. I look forward to taking you all for a sail some time.

Sorry I took so long to get involved, but I don't have time these days to follow all the forums so I rely on people telling me when something interesting comes up. This one slipped through the net.

Re trolls: I love them! Especially the ones who have never seen or sailed on a harry. My only form of advertising is occasional articles on the boats and www forums. There are only so many articles you can write and so many threads you can ambush by pointing out the drawbacks of monos and cats compared to proas. Therefore, guys like jolli and catty are gold and should be cherished. My family also loves them. After a difficult day, I used to come home, shout at the missus and send the kid to bed. Now I go online, pick a troll and abuse him instead. Very therapeutic and good advertising as well. ;-)

Jolli's first post about "all the maybe's" was about my personal boat, a 50' proa I am building (hulls and decks are built, few little hiccups with carbon for the telescoping rig and the beams). This is a solo race boat (1,650 lb race ready) with a few experiments on it, which in theory could right itself if it capsizes. A bit further on, I mention that, also in theory, it may not even capsize from wind loads. This is because the rig is canted to leeward, and the weight in the windward hull is low enough for positive righting moment at 80 degrees of heel. The numbers and the logic are at harryproa/solo transpac about half way down. I can see why a self righting multi scares jolli, it upsets quite a few cat designers as well.

His other post, about Visionarry Cruiser theoretically flying a hull in 25 knots is also well out of context. The actual quote is about the Sport version (Blind Date) and reads "If it had a conventional, stayed rig, Blind Date would lift a hull when the breeze hits 25 knots. Sensible cruising sailors would reef at 20 knots or less. However, because the rig is unstayed it will bend considerably and at 25 knots the ww hull will still be firmly in the water. This element of safety makes an enormous difference in gusty conditions".
His formulae and numbers are for monos. Righting moment/sail area is what determines when proas fly a hull, and on the boat in the video, this is better than most performance cruising cats. The wind speed in the video was an estimate by the guys on board, both experienced sailors, one of whom is a pretty hard nosed journo. The speed is by gps. To be frank, if it was less than 15 knots breeze, the boat is outperforming a lot of hot racers. If it is more, it is an amazingly stable and safe platform. Remember, this is a cruising boat, set up for long term cruising. It weighs about 40% more than Blind Date and has a bendier mast and sails which need recutting. There are few if any cats that will tight reach this quick, without a nervous crew hand holding the mainsheet. Future boats have a less draggy rudder system, so should be quicker, and throw up less spray.

Jolli's general comments and views about safety are tripe.
Most boat problems are rig related. The unstayed, balanced rig stepped far away from the crew is far safer than a stayed one. There is almost nothing to break, maintain and carefully align and tune. It also depowers automatically in a gust, making it much less risky, the sail can be raised and lowered on any point of sail and there is much less wear and tear on the sails.
Leaks are another major cause of concern. Harrys have no daggerboards or rudder fittings below the water line, so there is nothing to leak or to tear holes in the hull in a grounding.
Injuries from booms, ropes, winches and being thrown about by violent motion are far less likely on a harry than any other type of sail boat.
Of the miniscule number of non racing multis that capsize and equally miniscule number of monos that sink at sea in a storm, virtually all could be averted by the use of a sea anchor. In the case of Visionarry the rudders can be lifted, giving a 50; x 28' raft drawing 12" with very buoyant ends. The wave that would capsize this would destroy >99% of all the monos out there cruising.

Catty is correct that no harrys have crossed oceans. I do not have the means to fit out a boat to do so, and am not silly enough to try proving anything in a boat not properly prepared. Of the three others sailing, one has a dead owner, one sails twice a week on the Ijselmeer and one has done some east coast of Aus cruising, experiencing 30 knots with no troubles.
Lots of people want to wait until all possible testing has been done, so his attitude is certainly not unique. It is why I am building the 50' solo boat, although then he will want to wait until at least 3 of them have sailed round the Horn the wrong way. Other people can see the logic in a design and are happy to go with their logic. I am here for the long haul, so am pretty sure that eventually everyone will see the light.

I have raced my prototype harryproa/elementarry sailing photos and since then occasionally race unofficially against Tornados, and sundry other cats in Perth. What this has shown is that the boat is as quick as the numbers suggest, and that I really should stop playing with ideas to improve the breed and put in the last 10% of effort (smooth hull, faired rudders, perfect sail etc) so I can kick some bottoms.

Re proa engines: All the suggestions in post 81 have been suggested except for the ones which can't be lifted from the water. Proa people tend to be a bit avante garde, so most of the boats in build are planning electric motors of various types and arrangements. No idea of the ideal yet, but in the unlikely event I get to race in ostar next year, it will be with a two bladed surface piercing prop and an electric motor with a wind generator.

Sorry for such a long post. I have glossed over a lot of stuff. Anyone with any questions about posts I haven't answered (Russ Brown, Ted Warren etc), the above, or the boats generally, please ask. Jolli and Catty, please don't pack a sad and go away, I really enjoy discussing things with guys like you. Try and be specific about what upsets you, it saves a lot of waffle from both of us.

regards,

Rob
__________________
rob denney is offline  
Old 31-01-2008, 06:57   #80
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,311
Rob,

Good to see you here! Since your product is on the market and available as a commercial endeavor it is in my eyes a fair subject for discussion. I too enjoy a lively discussion and while I am not opposed to new ideas I am concerned when a product is advertised as a "family friendly cruiser" like the R33 was. We'll leave that one out for now.

So do you consider your target market a regular joe sailing todays cruisers? Is your harry proa a safe "family friendly cruiser" capable of making the jumps most cruisers make?

Fair winds and looking forward to lively and friendly debate,

Joli
__________________
Joli is offline  
Old 31-01-2008, 14:18   #81
Registered User
 
multihullsailor6's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cruising in the SUN! Cruising towards Malta.
Boat: 37' Oldenziel cat
Posts: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Rob,

Good to see you here! Since your product is on the market and available as a commercial endeavor it is in my eyes a fair subject for discussion. I too enjoy a lively discussion and while I am not opposed to new ideas I am concerned when a product is advertised as a "family friendly cruiser" like the R33 was. We'll leave that one out for now.

So do you consider your target market a regular joe sailing todays cruisers? Is your harry proa a safe "family friendly cruiser" capable of making the jumps most cruisers make?

Fair winds and looking forward to lively and friendly debate,

Joli
Hello Joli,

I'm in the "family friendly cruiser" category ( for a long term / round the world cruising project ) and have been smithened by Rob's Harryproa Visionarry design. I'm also the first one to admit that it took some time to come around both from 1) a sailing aspect and 2) a visual aspect - re 1) I'm willing to learn / adjust and re 2) just imagine a modern paint job / design. Obviously a Harryproa might not meet your accommodation requirements as much as a cat might, it's much more like a tri. Apart from that any responsible sailor has to think how best to survive the sea what is basically an "unfriendly environment" to us human beings. I think Rob's design is technically advanced and offers safe sailing potential with input from us cruising sailors.
Roger
__________________
multihullsailor6 is offline  
Old 31-01-2008, 14:41   #82
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Whangaparaoa,NZ
Boat: 63 ft John Spencer Schooner
Posts: 956
At Last I have launched and sailed my proa. I love it. It is a very safe boat, and fast.
As soon as I can organize some money I'm up for Rob's 50ft cruiser.

Crew.org.nz :: View topic - Proa's Progress
__________________
dana-tenacity is offline  
Old 01-02-2008, 07:43   #83
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Rob,

Good to see you here! Since your product is on the market and available as a commercial endeavor it is in my eyes a fair subject for discussion. I too enjoy a lively discussion and while I am not opposed to new ideas I am concerned when a product is advertised as a "family friendly cruiser" like the R33 was. We'll leave that one out for now.

So do you consider your target market a regular joe sailing todays cruisers? Is your harry proa a safe "family friendly cruiser" capable of making the jumps most cruisers make?

Fair winds and looking forward to lively and friendly debate,

Joli
G'day,

Another long one. Sorry. Although anyone keen enough to go back to a forum discussion I had with Ted Warren in 2002 should not be fazed. Fun thread that, I recommend it. Lots of questions and answers.

Definitely a fair subject for discussion, although cruising harryproas are about as similar to R33's as they are to long keel monos.

"Regular Joes" find shunting much easier, safer and more logical than tacking and gybing. Both they and "regular Joannes" find the harry layout infinitely superior to monos and cats.

Are they capable of ocean crossing? Built to the plans, fitted out sensibly and sailed by someone with a modicum of seamanship, yes. Harrys are engineered by a very skilled composite engineer from first principles. The loads in the hulls and beams are identical to those in a tri, but of lower magnitude. The rig loads are far simpler.

Are they "family friendly cruisers"? Short answer is yes. They are laid out (harryproa / harry) with the cockpit in the middle of the boat (minimal pitching) alongside the windward hull. It has a removable cover so the occupants need never get wet or windblown if they don't want to be. There are no ropes, winches, cleats, jammers or stoppers in the cockpit. The mainsheet is the only control line and this is a one part, lightly loaded line cleated next to the wheel which is adjacent to the cockpit. Kids and non sailors sit in comfort and safety and are still close enough to the helmsman (also under cover) to chat or play on the cockpit floor. There are a couple of steps down into the galley which is also amidships, with plenty of fresh air and light. The huge bunks are opposite the galley,either side of the hatch, easily checked from the galley or from the cockpit.

To leeward of the cockpit is a walkway to the lee hull, which also has a walkway along the windward side. It is near impossible to fall overboard from either of these. Between the walkway and the beams is trampoline, which is great for relaxing and playing on, under the eye of the driver or from the cockpit. The beams are 300m/1' high and are a natural barrier. They could have lifelines on top if required. To get up on the windward hull requires a big effort, but this could also be fenced in if required. So, no matter what the point of sail, or the maneuver, or the weather, the kids can be outside, in the fresh air having fun in perfect safety, regardless of what is happening on the boat.

Compare the following scenarios with how you and your family handle them on your boat, be it a cat, tri or mono.

To reef, hoist or lower sails on any point of sail the single sheet is released, the rig weathercocks and the boat stops, rolling a little bit on the waves. Someone strolls down to leeward, does what has to be done, strolls back, sheets on and off they go. Unless it is raining or above F7, he/she does not need wet weather gear, may wear a harness, but is highly unlikely to need it.
To tack or gybe, regardless of how strong the wind is or how big the waves, release the sheet, rotate the rudders, pull on the new sheet. Takes about half a minute for one person not in a hurry. People down below usually don't know it has happened.
Running downwind in a building breeze? Ease the sheet until you have the power you require, all the way round to zero if necessary. At zero, take in a reef, as above.
Hit by a squall out of nowhere in the middle of the night? The rig flexes, the boat accelerates, nothing else happens.
Caught aback? The rig weathercocks, the boat stops, you re trim the sails and carry on.
In irons? Reverse the rudders, sheet on and sail away downwind.
Gybe all standing? Rig weathercocks, boat stops. Impossible for anyone to be hit on the head. The jib going the opposite way to the main softens the gybe so it is even less dramatic.
Caught off a lee shore in a breeze? Hoist enough sail for the max gust expected, as it will automatically depower in more than this. No fear of missing a tack in steep seas, just shunt and sail in the other direction. Only requires one person on the deck, in complete shelter all the time.
Anchor drags on a lee shore? Boat drifts up the beach, everybody steps off in ankle deep water. One of my 40' prototypes did just this. Bounced on the beach in waves too big to launch a dinghy through for 3 hours. No damage at all.
Hat or person falls overboard? Dump the sheet and pull in the new one. Boat stops fast enough for people to have to hold on or fall down. Rotate the rudders and sail straight back to the p/hob and stop the boat exactly and controllably where you want it. Less than a minute single handed, regardless of weather. Lower the ladder, or a section of the tramp and pick he/she/it up.
Catch a fish running down the trades? Dump the sheet, boat stops. No flailing ropes, everyone can watch and help get it in without worrying about anything else. Then sheet on, and continue sailing.
Crowded anchorage? Sail into the beach, you only need 12" of water and can stop, reverse and sail out of any tight spots.
Cooking? Stove rarely needs gimbals. Tables with condiments and cutlery on them can almost always be used, without having to hold on to your plate.
Sleeping? Permanent bunks with sitting headroom, no lee cloths. The bunks are in the middle of the boat for max comfort. Adjacent to the hatch for emergencies.
Toilet? Private, well ventilated and no need for gymnastics.
Shallow water? Lift the rudders and sail in 300mm/12" of water.
Hit the bottom? Rudders kick up. Push them back down, replace the sheer pin and carry on.
Run aground and stuck? Rotate the rig and sail out backwards.
Hitting containers and logs? The 4 ends of the hulls are 2'/600mm of glass covered polystrene with a solid bulkhead behind it. Will withstand a much bigger hit than any solid glass laminate. For ultra cautious types, the area below the waterline could be the same. If you manage to breach this, the boat will still float, and be able to be sailed, albeit cautiously.
Forgot to check every morning that nothing has shaken loose overnight? Not pulled the rig each year for it's check over? Not replaced the standing rigging every 5 years and the mast every 10-15? No big deal, there is almost nothing to break on an unstayed rig. The only reason to go up the mast is to look for coral and landfalls or to check the 3 halyard sheaves and whatever stuff (aerials etc) you put on the top of the mast.
Access from a dinghy? Very easy with the fold down tramp, or even over the beams as they are in the middle of the boat where pitching is least.
Dinghy stowage? Pull or lift it (use the boom as a gantry) over the beam and leave it on the trampoline.
Anchoring and retrieving? Sail up to the anchor, break it out, reverse the rudders and sail away downwind as slowly as you like while it is hoisted and stowed. The anchor winch is next to the helmsman so no foredeck work or shouting required. The headsail is 20' away, so doesn't knock you about or get covered in mud.
Coming alongside? Fore and aft rudders make maneuvering a dream, the boat turns very sharply or can crab sideways, even off a jetty to leeward.
Antifouling? Any beach with a couple of feet of tide. Scrub it off in knee deep water, or at anchor with only a mask and snorkel. No rudders or keels to antifoul.
Serious work to do? Hoist it out with a smallish crane, take it apart and truck it to a low rent place to do the work.
Kids big enough to want their own space? The lee hull is big enough for 2 bunks with their own bathroom, completely seperate from mum and dad.
Gale coming? Sail away from it at 15 knots in comfort (see the video) or at 20+ knots with a bit more effort.
Caught in a gale? Drop the sails, lift the rudders and go below and play with your kids in a king size bunk that is barely rolling or pitching. Step into the cockpit in your pyjamas every 20 minutes to have a look around.
Caught in a storm? Put a drogue on a bridle over the back to slow you down. The zero rocker, double ended, high buoyancy hulls with no deck gear or beams at the ends, unfloodable cockpit and no doors or wash boards to stove in are as safe as is possible for running in big seas.
The storm becomes a "perfect storm"? Deploy the sea anchor without having to leave the safety of the centre part of the boat.

That was fun! If any of it does not appear logical to you, please let me know.

I am sure I have missed some situations, and equally sure that there are some I have not covered, both pro and con. Again, let me know.

There are some harry's that do not have all the above features, but they could if required.

Hope this answers your question, please let me know if it doesn't, or if you still think they are unsafe. Actually, before you do so, get your wife and kids to read the above and get their opinion on which they would prefer.

Regards,

Rob
__________________
rob denney is offline  
Old 01-02-2008, 08:49   #84
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,311
Hello Rob,

Please don't be sorry for a long response. I appreciate you taking the time to respond and enjoy reading what you have written. You reference some older comments between you and Ted Warren from steam radio (great read) and I've read comments from Russ Brown about "not being able to sleep when someone else is driving is tough conditions" or "a good trimaran will take care of itself a proa won't". I also enjoyed the Herbert Wenkus article "does the proa still have a future"

So from there lets have a fun conversation, please understand this my opinion, I hope the discussion stays civil.

I see the proa as a trimaran missing one hull. If it is an Atlantic the weather hull is gone and the fear is always backing, in a Pacific the leeward hull is missing and the fear is capsize due to a low righting moment (relative) with gusty wind or a rapid change in apparent wind.

It seems to me the proa must be sailed actively 100% of the time given the restrictions mentioned above. How do you do that as a cruiser? If you are below having a cup of coffee and the autopilot packs it in what happens? Can the boat go over if the apparent wind doubles from a course change? Around here, with cold water a capsize would be lethal.

I've traded e-mails with J Taylor (nice guy) and his Harry Proa (your design) with a wing sail and a mechanical release seems to be a way around this. With a feedback system the boat could be sailed without 100% participation by the sailor because it could unload the power of the rig if something else fails. So, who does a sailor believe? Ted Warren, Russ Brown, Rob Denney?

I do like the look of your boats and think they would be a hoot for coastal cruising in warmer areas but I am not convinced yet that they will make safe offshore boats.

If this appears to be trollish I apoligize that is not the intent.

Best regards,

Joli
__________________
Joli is offline  
Old 02-02-2008, 07:14   #85
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,081
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
but I am not convinced yet that they will make safe offshore boats Joli
Course not - only heavy displacement long keel monohulls should be allowed to sail out of sight of land. - Can someone take a note and make sure we tell Francis Joyon and Ellen Macarthur to stop setting records in multis. Oh and any Maori people on this forum, could you please move back to the island sto the north of NZ - cause JOLI has pronounced that the boats your ancestors came to NZ on clearly couldnt cross oceans.

Dear Mr Denney - Rob, please dont encourage JOLI, he comes in here with the express purpose of picking a fight.
__________________
Factor is online now  
Old 03-02-2008, 05:34   #86
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 135
You reference some older comments between you and Ted Warren from steam radio (great read) and I've read comments from Russ Brown about "not being able to sleep when someone else is driving is tough conditions" or "a good trimaran will take care of itself a proa won't". I also enjoyed the Herbert Wenkus article "does the proa still have a future"

I see the proa as a trimaran missing one hull. If it is an Atlantic the weather hull is gone and the fear is always backing, in a Pacific the leeward hull is missing and the fear is capsize due to a low righting moment (relative) with gusty wind or a rapid change in apparent wind.

It seems to me the proa must be sailed actively 100% of the time given the restrictions mentioned above. How do you do that as a cruiser? If you are below having a cup of coffee and the autopilot packs it in what happens? Can the boat go over if the apparent wind doubles from a course change? Around here, with cold water a capsize would be lethal.

I've traded e-mails with J Taylor (nice guy) and his Harry Proa (your design) with a wing sail and a mechanical release seems to be a way around this. With a feedback system the boat could be sailed without 100% participation by the sailor because it could unload the power of the rig if something else fails. So, who does a sailor believe? Ted Warren, Russ Brown, Rob Denney?

I do like the look of your boats and think they would be a hoot for coastal cruising in warmer areas but I am not convinced yet that they will make safe offshore boats.

G'day,
You referenced the Brown and Warren comments, not me. Suggest you read them for my response. Wenkus knows even less about harryproas than Ted Warren did. You can believe who you like, but Russ is correct, (but only about his own boats, he has never mentioned harrys), Ted (designer, builder of a single unsuccessful 20' lake proa) left the discussion when I showed he was wrong and I am the only one with more than 3 proas (30+) to his name, from 16-66'. If any of Ted's or Russ's comments and my replies don't make sense to you, please reference them and I will try to explain.

Harrys are neither Pacific nor Atlantic and cannot capsize if caught aback. Please read my previous email.

They are like a double ended tri with the windward hull and beams removed, the rig in the lee hull and the accommodation in a shortened central hull. Not much like a tri at all, really.

You are wrong about the need for 100% attention. As you can see in the video, they are very easy boats to sail. Not many cruising multis sail at 15 knots without someone nervously holding onto the mainsheet. The flexible rig and high righting moment take care of the unexpected gust.

If the autopilot died downwind, the boat would either luff and stop, or gybe (softly, with no chance of damage or impact) and stop. The main would lie still, the jib would slop back and forth on it's traveller, irritating you , but not doing any damage.
On a reach or upwind, it would either luff and stop or bear away and softly gybe. The apparent would barely if any increase at any stage of any of these situations as the sails would stall or luff within a few degrees of course change.

Compare these scenarios with letting go the tiller in most other boats in a decent breeze and sea. They either luff violently, the jib gets caught aback, the boat goes backward, possible breaking the steering, then spins round until it gybes all standing, which may or may not take out the mast, the boom, the rigging or the head of anyone unfortunate enough to be in the way, OR they bear away and gybe all standing, see above. If it is a mono this will be accompanied by violent, unpredictable rolling and chaos down below. If the course is downwind, you will probably loose your whisker or spinnaker pole and the bottom of the headsail or spinnaker as well.

Capsizes are lethal anywhere. Cruising cats rarely if ever do so, (hard to think of any over 35' that have in the last 50 years. Anyone who can, let us have the circumstances as well, please) and the same would apply to a harry, but even more so, due to the rig. Of course, if you are timid, there is nothing to stop you enjoying all the harry attributes except speed by simply using a smaller or reefed rig and restricting yourself to mono speeds.

With the flexible rig, you do not need any mechanical device to reduce the power. It happens automatically, with every gust, without consuming any electricity or needing any crew input. Again, look at the mast in the video.

I'm glad you like the boats. Could you please read my previous email and let me know what makes them unsafe or unsuitable as family cruisers. Or even more interesting, maybe you (or someone else) could run through the list and tell us what "your family friendly cruising boat and crew" do in each of the scenarios, assuming decent breeze and seas.

Factor,
Please read the 3rd paragraph of my first post. I will happily answer any questions once, will start to get stroppy if questions are asked which have already been answered.

regards,

Rob
__________________
rob denney is offline  
Old 04-02-2008, 07:09   #87
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,311
Hello Rob,

Thank you again for responding. I spent some time going through all the conversation between you and Ted Warren, articles by Russ Brown, and articles by Phillip Bolger and have a tough time wrapping my arms around a proa concept for a cruising boat. All these folks mentioned above are substantial men, Ted Warren is a MIT Engineer, Russ Brown is second generation multi hull designer, and Philip Bolger has designed hundreds of boats and all these guys have reservations about a proa as a cruiser. On the other hand you have a substantial sailing resume with more the just a few miles sailing. I understand you've put a lot of thought,time, money, and effort in designing and building harry proas. Your design is chock full of clever engineering and looks to be fun to sail.

I guess like most things, time will tell if they make good cruising boats. I do wish you well though and look forward to seeing J Taylors boat when it arrives in the US.

Best regards,

Joli
__________________
Joli is offline  
Old 04-02-2008, 07:49   #88
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Hello Rob,

Thank you again for responding. I spent some time going through all the conversation between you and Ted Warren, articles by Russ Brown, and articles by Phillip Bolger and have a tough time wrapping my arms around a proa concept for a cruising boat. All these folks mentioned above are substantial men, Ted Warren is a MIT Engineer, Russ Brown is second generation multi hull designer, and Philip Bolger has designed hundreds of boats and all these guys have reservations about a proa as a cruiser. On the other hand you have a substantial sailing resume with more the just a few miles sailing. I understand you've put a lot of thought,time, money, and effort in designing and building harry proas. Your design is chock full of clever engineering and looks to be fun to sail.

I guess like most things, time will tell if they make good cruising boats. I do wish you well though and look forward to seeing J Taylors boat when it arrives in the US.

Best regards,

Joli
G'day,

Thank you for the good wishes. Undoubtedly Ted is better qualified than me (although he is a beginner compared to my engineer), Phil has designed more boats and Russ' dad is more famous than mine. HOWEVER, none of them have sailed a harryproa. Apart from Ted (briefly, and wrongly), none of them have even mentioned a harryproa, much less seen or sailed one. Between them they have designed 3 proas. Ted's was sailed once on a lake, then abandoned, Russ' first one fell apart and his second was possibly one of the most uncomfortable cruising boat ever built, according to the Cruising World article. None of them is or was remotely like a harryproa.

Which bits can't you get your arms around? Why can't you look at what I have said, the video, what is on my web page and my response to Ted then make your own decision, rather than relying on people who are famous but know nothing about the boats?

You asked about family friendly cruisers, and I replied with some scenarios. The least you could do is compare how your boat and family would handle those and make a decision based on facts, rather than unfounded prejudice and hot air.

You might also want to look back at some of your comments earlier in the thread and either apologise or rescind them.

regards,

rob
__________________
rob denney is offline  
Old 04-02-2008, 09:53   #89
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,311
Hello Rob,

OK, the problem I have and continue to have is the pacific proa has a very low righting moment. The harry proa is a variant of a pacific proa, you've moved weight from the Leeward hull to the wind ward hull to increase rm but the design logic is still the same. Bricking sails and setting them on the high side increases rm but the design remains the same. Maybe your Carbo Spars are the solution to a low rm and the boat simply cannot generate enough healing moment to fly a hull. If that is the case then I apologize but if the boat is still capable of flying a hull then we are back where we started? Yes?

Defining "family friendly cruiser". IMO, making a boat easy to sail does not in itself mean it is a family friendly cruiser. Making a boat that can look after itself when things go in the shitter is in my opinion a "family friendly cruiser".

Let me be very carefull here and use your exact words here from your conversations with Rob.

Rob talking about Russ Brown and Lew MacGreggor and your response.

"They are both quite up front about
>the fact that they are difficult to sail offshore and not for the
>average sailor.
>I believe that Russ strikes sail at night.

Rob
If you were to talk to Steve Fossett, he may "have a few issues with
stability, both in caught aback (under masthead gennaker, with water
ballast tanks on the windward side full, for example) and
pitchpoling". He will be "very upfront about his boat not being
suitable for the average sailor". This does not mean maxi cats are
unsuitable for ocean crossings, any more than it means proas are.

Both assertions are absolutely true."


I read this as as you agreeing with Rob Warren that a proa is difficult to sail offshore and you better be a very good seaman to do it? If I have misunderstood you then I apologize. I honestly don't believe the average family going sailing has very much experience. So can they sail a harry proa offshore successfully?

Best regards,

Joli
__________________
Joli is offline  
Old 04-02-2008, 19:37   #90
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 135
G'day,
In terms of resistance to capsize and ease of sailing, harry's are _not_ Pacific proas, any more than they are water ballasted round the world race cats. Russ' boats are, by his own admission, unsafe, but they are not harrys. Fossetts boat was unsafe according to Ted, but it is not a harry.

Harrys do _not_ have low righting moment. They have the highest righting moment for their weight of any sailing boat. They cannot capsize if caught aback.

Your fear is capsize. Fair enough. Some numbers for the Visionary cruiser, using Shuttleworths stability formula.

With a conventional stayed mast, the capsize wind speed is 26 knots, on the high side for performance cruisers.

The unstayed mast is designed to bend 7' before the hull flies. This effectively halves the sail area and the height of the coe. The wind required to fly a hull is 55 knots. This assumes the boat is side on to the breeze, with full sail. I suspect there is not a cruising cat in the world with such a high capsize wind speed, and few if any monos that would not be knocked flat.

For your boat, I would lower the mast by 10' and make it even more flexible. It would take more than 70 knots to fly the hull, but would still be quicker, safer and more comfortable than any mono cruiser.

If you want to continue the capsize conversation, can you please refer to these numbers rather than hypotheses from people who have never sailed or seen the boats.

My references were not just to ease of sailing. The following are all to do with the boat looking after itself when things get gnarly, and are far more likely to occur than a 70 knot squall from nowhere.

What happens when your mono autopilot breaks in a breeze while you are below drinking your coffee?
When you accidentally gybe when someone is standing in the cockpit or on the side decks?
When you get caught aback with full sail up in marginal conditions and big waves?
When a 50 knot Great Lakes squall from nowhere hits just as you are coming out of the companionway?
When a serious wave breaks over the boat while you are on the foredeck, at the mast, or cowering in the cockpit?
When your anchor drags on a lee shore?
When you get in irons tacking off a lee shore in a gale, and there is a craypot line wrapped round your prop?
When you run aground at speed?
When you hit a container at 9 knots in 9 knots of breeze?
When a headsail sheet is released for a tack and someone is standing on it?
When someone is holding onto the fall of the mainsheet near the blocks when it is eased?

A harryproa is far more capable of looking after itself than any mono. Please let me know any scenarios where this is not the case.

Regards,

Rob
__________________

__________________
rob denney is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sailing Costs from a Different Perspective MaineCub General Sailing Forum 9 27-07-2007 11:45
Sailing Vocabulary GordMay General Sailing Forum 1 02-07-2007 15:18
"I learned about sailing from that" skipgundlach The Sailor's Confessional 3 29-03-2007 14:41
Yacht Charter Company Sunsail Earns "Outstanding" Award CaptainK The Library 0 10-04-2006 20:15



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.