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Old 03-12-2007, 11:40   #61
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Where are these conversations? Link?
Here is a site I've always enjoyed, spirited conversations between designers, builders, and sailors. Rob Denney is a regular poster.

If the designers/builders can't come to agreement regarding the safety of the proa design I think I'll pass on one for a family cruiser.

Rob! I do think it is a patently bad idea to design a cruising cat that flies a hull in 15 true.

[MHml] Safety regs
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Old 03-12-2007, 15:10   #62
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
Here is a site I've always enjoyed, spirited conversations between designers, builders, and sailors. Rob Denney is a regular poster.

If the designers/builders can't come to agreement regarding the safety of the proa design I think I'll pass on one for a family cruiser.

Rob! I do think it is a patently bad idea to design a cruising cat that flies a hull in 15 true.

[MHml] Safety regs
You can reef the sails you know. But at least you will have a boat that can still move in light air. Again, the proa in the video was sailing in 15 knots, and NOT flying a hull. Did you even bother to watch?
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Old 03-12-2007, 17:50   #63
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Cruisingcat, of course I watched the video but the question still remains, is this the boat you want to go cruising in with your family? I applaud what Rob is doing but even multi desingers can't decide if it is a safe design for ocean sailing. Time will tell eh?

Light air? We sail at 9 knots in 9 knots, it's just waterline, no big trick.
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Old 03-12-2007, 18:08   #64
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Do you want to take your family cruising in a boat that can sink? At any time, even if there is absolutely NO wind?

The proa is probably not for me, it's accomodation is too much like a monohull, (lacking privacy) but I wouldn't condemn anyone else for choosing one.

Multihulls give you the possibility of sailing fast without needing a huge and expensive boat - we did a sustained and very comfortable 14 - 16 knot reach in around 20 knots TWS in a 38 foot boat. We overtook "Siska" while doing it - a Syd-Hobart winning maxi with considerably more than double our waterline.
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Old 05-12-2007, 12:37   #65
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What about engine power and propulsion system for a proa/Harryproa intended for worldwide longterm cruising?

As the proa sails in both directions, any chosen system should lift clear of the water. For total security reasons I would not want any part of the propulsion system to exit a hull under the water line. I'd be happy to "designate" a "power-only" direction, like larger leeward hull always to port under power, and would want twin propulsions for marina action.

So, the big question: twin lifting outboards, twin electric drives, twin hydraulic drives (the latter two both linked to one diesel power plant)? Lifting Siluette drives or lifting outboard drives? Lifting straight shafts? What about jet drives?
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Old 05-12-2007, 15:31   #66
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Good on ya Joli , stick to ya guns.

If the boat does actually fly a hull in 15 tws it is unsafe for family cruising.
What 44cruisingcat, reef at 7 and wait for a gust? Give us a break.

Before we start defending boats why don't we wait for some testing ocean miles(in the enviroment it was designed and marketed for). If after all this time the designer hasn't risked his own neck riding his contraption, BEWARE!
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Old 05-12-2007, 15:49   #67
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Before we start defending boats why don't we wait for some testing ocean miles(in the enviroment it was designed and marketed for). If after all this time the designer hasn't risked his own neck riding his contraption, BEWARE!
Well the concept is certainly nothing new, they have arguably been around longer than the traditional western styled monohull.

Proa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The word proa comes from perahu, the word for "boat" in Malay, which is similar to the Micronesian language group. [1] Found in many configurations and forms, the proa was likely developed as a sailing vessel in Micronesia (Pacific Ocean), and forms of it may be found as far as Madagascar and Sri Lanka as far back as the 1st century, and they are known by many names. The use of the term proa in English to refer to the Micronesian craft dates back to at least 1742 (see below).


1968 OSTAR ( single handed trans-atlantic) had a proa

Single-Handed Trans-Atlantic Race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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The OSTAR, 1968
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The race was by now acquiring a reputation for pushing forward the technology of ocean sailing, and the 1968 edition featured the first ever use of computer-based weather routing. A far cry from today's laptop-laden yachts, this consisted of a land-based mainframe computer, English Electric's KDF9, linked by radio to Geoffrey Williams in his boat Sir Thomas Lipton. Although outside private routing advice of this kind is no longer permitted in most "unassisted" races, it is now routine for ocean sailors to do similar analyses using their on-board computers to process public weather information.
Williams created another story by his use of the "shortcut" through the Nantucket Shoal. This dangerous route was supposed to be illegal, but due to an error the race instructions required skippers only to keep south of Nantucket, instead of Nantucket Light. Williams successfully navigated the treacherous route in a gale. Gales were a major feature of the race, with a large storm on the 11th of June, and Hurricane Brenda, both contributing to the large number of retired and abandoned boats; one casualty was Éric Tabarly, aboard his new trimaran Pen Duick IV.
Although won by a monohull, this race saw the multihulls firmly established on the scene. Thirteen of the 35 boats entered were multihulls, led by the controversial proa Cheers; many observers felt that a proa was entirely unsuitable for ocean sailing, but she made a fast time along the Azores route.[3][11]
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Old 05-12-2007, 18:56   #68
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Good on ya Joli , stick to ya guns.

If the boat does actually fly a hull in 15 tws it is unsafe for family cruising.
What 44cruisingcat, reef at 7 and wait for a gust? Give us a break.
FFS the boat doesnt fly a hull in 15 knots. WATCH THE F***ING VIDEO!
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Old 05-12-2007, 19:17   #69
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Argument

I personally am not clear on the purpose of the argument. The mathmatics of stability both statically and dynamically are satisfactory for proa type vessel, given the helmsman reefs appropriately as any other good seafarer. The boat design is light as it affords less accommodations than a typical catamaran of equal length. But is not too light to get sufficient performance and balance in reasonable wind conditions. Wave piercing Leeward hull does make motion less abrupt and slamming has yet to be evaluated as a problem.

I wouldn't sail it as a cruiser beyond it's capabilities, thus drogues and chutes for severe storms. Should be safe enough as all those floating containers bobbing around the deep blue sea.

So those who don't like it, is the design too practical ? Too easy to control the sails with a lightly loaded mainsheet ? Perhaps too fast cause of narrow aspect hulls or long waterline ?

There are compromises, long hull & wide beam makes less fun in marina maneuvers and more cost for dock space.

It is a radical departure from today's standards, although there was a time not long ago when all catamarans were considered poor choice as a sailboat. I am certainly open to suggestions for improvement or testing. Which is also why new rudder designs are being evaluated, does not make the original any less safe or functional. I will certainly take every opportunity to make a good thing better. Much the same as most of you have done to your own craft. Harryproa is experimenting mostly with smaller size to get it right when scale up to cruisers is ready.

Certainly a soapbox for personal biases is not particularly helpful. If the modern proa design has advantages beyond current classes of recreational boats then many more will come. My personal desire is a large enough and stable craft easily handled by one, whose operation is not so difficult that the owner must option for a trawler as age diminishes the abilities of many. Or at least extend the opportunity to go to sea in a wind powered boat.

AS "Blind Date" provides a safe sailing experience to blind persons, the performance and stability does lend itself to other cruiser purposes.
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Old 06-12-2007, 06:10   #70
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44cruisingcat I don't remember seeing the independantly calibrated wind speed indicator on the F***ING video. All I saw was a poorly disguised add for a particular breed of proa or should I say symetrically challenged catamaran.

Cat Man Do, All you achieved was to show us how little you know about the different types of proa. Try telling Russ that Jezzero is similar to Robs "lots of weight and windage to windward contraption" . I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that answer. Possibly similar to telling someone that their lovely stylish round bilge grainger cat looks like a bob orram box boat.

Regards.
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Old 07-12-2007, 15:27   #71
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After at least 100 off topic posts out of 107, I would like to talk about the video that is the subject of your thread.

That boat seems to be easy to handle at 15kts boat speed in 15kts wind under full sail, and appears to remain fairly flat on the water. The unstayed mast seems to be flexing a bit but I recall that the sails can be cut to suit the bend.

Sailing at windspeed to weather in a cruising boat is impressive.

I like it.
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Old 07-12-2007, 18:14   #72
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It impressed me, which was why I posted it. Even in a 7 minute video you could see it eating up the miles...Unfortunately the owner of that boat died shortly after it was launched, which is why it's for sale. (And AFAIK it's the only cruising HarryProa currently for sale)
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Old 08-12-2007, 11:26   #73
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Now that we seem to be back on "proa territory" again, is anybody out there willing to reply to my question listed as post no. 81?
Thanks, guys.
Roger
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Old 08-12-2007, 12:21   #74
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I don't usually look into the multi forum. So forgive me with my lack of experiance. But in regards to your question, surely a propulsion sytem coming clear of the water is not an issue in this situation. If the hull clears the surface, surely you will be under sail, not under power. So the engine will not be running. If the engines are running, it will be for lack of wind and the hull clearing the surface will not be an issue.
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Old 08-12-2007, 12:40   #75
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Holy S**t! That boat is FLYING.
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