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Old 26-11-2007, 12:40   #16
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Wow! Opinions and converstaions about designs are alive and well!

Yes, Factor, I believe a design like this is unsafe for any open water sailing and I would not own one. Certainly, you can choose to own or sail a Harryproa if you like.
Having looked at many boats / designs from a "single / double-handed cruising in the fast lane" point of view I am at a loss at this comment-though I am positive about the exchange of ideas!

If you factor in a decent and knowlegable build of such a proa down to best current knowledge of materials used, I can only see positive sides, and just to name a few:

1) No through-hull underwater appendices which can hole / damage your hull (and I do know, recently been there!), instead equipped with pivoting rudders (and by the way no centreboards at all)
2) Unstayed, balanced mast (Aerorig / Easyrig ) with sheets leading from the boom end to the windward hull (think it through an accidental gybe - the sails will just feather) and no / reduced stressing on the total beams and windward hull structure due to the unstayed mast in the leeward hull
3) No tacking problems and need to backwind the jib - shunting (as proa tacking is called, was new for me) appears to be easy and fast
4) Draft - what draft? Shallow draft only down to your mid-calves
5) Storm tactic / survival / lying a-hull - should be handled securely with a sea anchor and unequal bridle thus giving you the possibilty to angle your boat to the wind / waves.

Rob Denney's design concept is clearly a new multihull approach ( and let's not forget that proas of this or that design have been around the Pacific for a long time) and will clearly evolve further which is going to be interesting to watch. There are currently a number of his ocean-capable Visionarry design in the build process around the world, due to be launched within the next two years - see his website. I'd love to put Cape Town on Rob's world map of Harryproa Visionarry building sites!
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Old 26-11-2007, 13:08   #17
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Rob, the designer himself admits capsize is possible in his literature.
In 40+ years of multihull activity I have still to come across a cat / tri / proa which CANNOT capsize - if the conditions are totally against you, you are going to capsize! And thereafter you'll float, not sink!!

I guess we all know the saying of the safest ways for a monohull versus multihull.
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Old 26-11-2007, 13:29   #18
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These are the designers words, not mine: harryproa/articles/ Meet Harry

" If it was to capsize, the buoyant mast and boom should stop it going past 90, and should also act as a sea anchor, enabling the hulls to blow downwind, at which time the wind should flip the boat back upright. Lots of "shoulds" in the above as it has yet to be tested, although it worked on the prototype."

Wanna bet on all those shoulds with your wife and kids aboard, 46 degree water, and breaking waves? Can you think anything through or do you just hurl insults?
If a mono were to capsize it also "should" self right (provided it doesn't sink first) - but how many of them are actually tested? A few racing monohulls are, but even then they don't test them with their rigs attached. So when you go to sea in your mono, you are relying on a lot of "shoulds" as well.

Monohulls DO have some stability when upside-down. Less than a multihull, but that is also true when they are right-side-up. You don't see many photographs of monohulls floating upside-down, because they don't usually stay afloat for long, but you still do see some. Fact is, they don't always come back right-side-up. That, like the superior monohull windward ability, is just another myth the monohull fraternity keep trying to perpetuate.

If you actually open your eyes and look at Denny's proa design you will realise that having the heavier accomodation hull to windward, and being able to completely de-power both headsail AND main by just releasing one line, means that capsise is very very unlikely.
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Old 26-11-2007, 14:32   #19
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These are the designers words, not mine: harryproa/articles/ Meet Harry

" If it was to capsize, the buoyant mast and boom should stop it going past 90, and should also act as a sea anchor, enabling the hulls to blow downwind, at which time the wind should flip the boat back upright. ?
Have to ask Joli, What happens when Mono-hulls capsize and fill with water?

Do you feel it is responsible to take your wife and children on a vessel that is inherently unstable?

Do you feel it is responsible to take your wife and children on a vessel that has large quantities of lead to assist in sinking?

Would you agree that a vessel, any vessel, that was capsized and had water ingress would have a far better chance of survival WITHOUT that large quantity of lead attached?

I have owned Mono-hulls previously Joli, and done many offshore miles in both form's of vessel.
How many Multi-hulls have you owned or even been on before making your sweeping observations ?

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Old 26-11-2007, 17:28   #20
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I've raced and palyed with beach cats, fun but my back can't take sitting on the tramp anymore. I've chartered cruisers down in the BVI's, again they are fun to party on but not my cup of tea. We've raced against the multis for years, the owners enjoy them, good for them. We can rehash that but why bother, we all have our own opinions about that.

Maybe someday we'll go to a cruising cat but we like our mono and will stick with that for the time being.

The Harryproa is being marketed as a cruiser. So, who is going to sail one from Newport to Bermuda or Bemuda to St Thomas? Me, no way, I would not trust it for that nor would I trust it around here given our weather and water temps.

Are insults the best you can do? Why don't you defend the concept as a blue water cruiser?
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Old 26-11-2007, 17:39   #21
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Joli,
It was your statement that the proa was dangerous.
Why?
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Old 26-11-2007, 17:40   #22
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Are insults the best you can do? Why don't you defend the concept as a blue water cruiser?
My Questions were not insulting and you have only answered one.

Would you like to answer the others?

Quote:
What happens when Mono-hulls capsize and fill with water?

Do you feel it is responsible to take your wife and children on a vessel that is inherently unstable?

Do you feel it is responsible to take your wife and children on a vessel that has large quantities of lead to assist in sinking?

Would you agree that a vessel, any vessel, that was capsized and had water ingress would have a far better chance of survival WITHOUT that large quantity of lead attached?
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Old 26-11-2007, 17:44   #23
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Dave, you know as well as I do that a holed mono will sink. We plan for that with a life raft and ditch bag. No argument here.

Sorry Dave, I hit the enter before I answered all you questions.

When the chips are down I want to be able to slam the hatchboards home and depend on ultimate stability. For me thats lead, for you its unsikability. Thats OK, we can disagree.

Item 3, not really, most of the deaths in this area while sailing have been a result of drowning or exposure. I know of two monos that sank in the past 25 years of racing. One boat filled with water and went down when the foreward hatch was left open. One person died, the water was very cold and help was slow getting to them. Another boat broke up in heavy seas, it was a repaired boat where a tree had fallen on it, no one died, they were in life rafts. Again, very cold water.

Most of the accidents (maybe 15 to 25 in 20 years) I know about have been flipped multis, I know of two who died, exposure/drowning inside the overturned hull. This is what I see happening in this area. This is how my opinion has been shaped. Maybe its different in other areas.
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Old 26-11-2007, 17:51   #24
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Rob, the boat is being marketed as a distance cruiser. Would you sail it from Bermuda to St Thomas? I wouldn't because I don't think I could keep it on its feet in bad weather. If the designer states "it should" recover I'm not filled with a great amount of confidence.
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Old 26-11-2007, 17:59   #25
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Dave, you know as well as I do that a holed mono will sink. We plan for that with a life raft and ditch bag. No argument here.
Thank you Joli, that is two questions answered.

The remainder please.

Quote:
Do you feel it is responsible to take your wife and children on a vessel that is inherently unstable?

Do you feel it is responsible to take your wife and children on a vessel that has large quantities of lead to assist in sinking?

Would you agree that a vessel, any vessel, that was capsized and had water ingress would have a far better chance of survival WITHOUT that large quantity of lead attached?
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Old 26-11-2007, 18:06   #26
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The proof of the pudding is that proas are out there and they were the means by which the Pacific was first explored.
And that means they are safe? You would be happy to sail a Harryproa from St Martin to the Azores?
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Old 26-11-2007, 18:38   #27
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Yes, with a decent crew.

Will you happily take your family across the Atlantic ?

I notice your voyage requirements get longer and longer.

Does your trans Atlantic requirement now mean you concede your suggested Caribbean voyage is not a problem for the harryproa?
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Old 26-11-2007, 18:49   #28
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Rob, the boat is being marketed as a distance cruiser. Would you sail it from Bermuda to St Thomas? I wouldn't because I don't think I could keep it on its feet in bad weather. If the designer states "it should" recover I'm not filled with a great amount of confidence.
The designer says it "should" recover from a capsize. But the chance of capsize in the first place is very very remote.

Most monohull designers can only offer the same assurance - the boat "should" recover if rolled. How many are actually tested? How many of those that are tested are tested with the rig in place?

A boat that is 50 feet long and 27 feet wide is not going to be capsized easily. "Keeping it on it's feet" is unlikely to be a problem.
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Old 26-11-2007, 19:16   #29
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Crew

Hey,

I'll need a crew in a couple of years,.... engineering is ongoing for structural (so it doesn't flip over --- ha-ha).

See 18 metre Visionarry

That's mine work in progress. Will need experienced crew to move to US east coast from South America where fabricated..... can take the long route.....

AND I live in Ohio,..... yes the "enema" land. Hopefully we all don't qualify for that characterization.

JT
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Old 26-11-2007, 19:22   #30
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Yes, with a decent crew.

Will you happily take your family across the Atlantic ?

I notice your voyage requirements get longer and longer.

Does your trans Atlantic requirement now mean you concede your suggested Caribbean voyage is not a problem for the harryproa?
We can agree to disagree. I don't consider the Harryproa safe enough to sail the Great Lakes, you're willing to sail it across an ocean.

No problem, we each have our opinion and time will tell.
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