Saba 50 vs Antares

[MIRELOS]

Hi sandcrab, just to say that I have not had any structural problems with my FP, and I have crossed the Atlantic east to west northern latitudes and survived two major hurricanes including Sandy, she is a very strong boat, comfortable and relatively fast.

[Sand crab]

The Eleutheras seem to be one of the better ones. Was it the early Oranas that had issues and did I read here somewhere that there were some growing pains in the early 2000s with the infusion process?

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

The Eleutheras seem to be one of the better ones. Was it the early Oranas that had issues and did I read here somewhere that there were some growing pains in the early 2000s with the infusion process?

I'm curious how many FPs you've owned?

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

That depends on where you want to sail it and the VAT if any. The BVIs are very easy on registering. People here have discussed Malta, Guensey and Jersey. If you are going to have it in the UK then seems like that's where you want to do it. VAT will become an issue in Europe. The US is technically just for citizens but you can get around it.

Boat brokers do international transactions all the time. Some have their own documentation people.

I was hoping to circumnavigate??

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by DotDun

I'm curious how many FPs you've owned?

None and I've never owned any large cat or boat. But growing up in Florida I did a fair amount of sailing and continued on with windsurfing and some larger boat time in Cali.

There has been some major issues with the early Oranas and are documented on the other forum. Orana, found NOT fit to sail the seas
The blog appears to be edited now and the other links are down. I suspect it was in the settlement agreement with FP but I read these at the time.

FPs biggest issue has not been structural but the osmosis, blistering and sometimes delamination (which would be structural if not caught early on) associated with these and these are well documented here and elsewhere. Yeloya posted about it here and he owns an Orana. I think other models had these problems also.

I'm not putting down anyone's boat. I might buy an FP and I always liked the Bahia.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Admiral has had some very public structural issues with the smaller cats.
That one for sale in Tampa was sold about a year or 2 ago. It was on the market for a couple of years. The price kept coming down and I think it went for about $300K. That's all I know.

FWIW just about all the cats have had issues.
The ones that have had very little issues are Seawind, Maine Cat, Manta, and Outremer.

The ones with more issues are Dean, Admiral and Maverick.

The middle ground has Leopard, Catana and Voyage near the top end and FP and Lagoon near the bottom.

Sand crab - Are you speaking about structural issues or issues in general?

I respectfully recommend you be careful making blanket assessments on entire product lines of builders regarding specific issues like "structural". That can be wrong in either direction when it comes to individual models within a builder's range and over a period of years.

But to say all boats have "issues" may indeed be true....

2 Hulls Dave

[Sand crab]

I see now my post that started out about the structural issues and went on to issues in general got misconstrued as all structural issues. My intent was to label the cats with issues in general. Many of the boats have had the osmosis trifecta problem. Others like Dean had major structural issues in SOME of the boats.
I thought I read that some of the Admirals had some structural issues also but now I can't find it. The company did go bellyup if that's any help. They did have problems with core damage from not sealing the holes cut in the boat above and below the waterline and I believe this was in the last years of business.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Admiral has had some very public structural issues with the smaller cats.
That one for sale in Tampa was sold about a year or 2 ago. It was on the market for a couple of years. The price kept coming down and I think it went for about $300K. That's all I know.

FWIW just about all the cats have had issues.
The ones that have had very little issues are Seawind, Maine Cat, Manta, and Outremer.

The ones with more issues are Dean, Admiral and Maverick.

The middle ground has Leopard, Catana and Voyage near the top end and FP and Lagoon near the bottom.

Originally Posted by Sand crab

None and I've never owned any large cat or boat. But growing up in Florida I did a fair amount of sailing and continued on with windsurfing and some larger boat time in Cali.

There has been some major issues with the early Oranas and are documented on the other forum. Orana, found NOT fit to sail the seas
The blog appears to be edited now and the other links are down. I suspect it was in the settlement agreement with FP but I read these at the time.

FPs biggest issue has not been structural but the osmosis, blistering and sometimes delamination (which would be structural if not caught early on) associated with these and these are well documented here and elsewhere. Yeloya posted about it here and he owns an Orana. I think other models had these problems also.

I'm not putting down anyone's boat. I might buy an FP and I always liked the Bahia.

So, all of your knowledge is conjecture from secondhand information read on the Internet.

Just wanted to see if you are an authority or just acting as one.....

[monte]

All boats have issues, just some manufacturers fix them before they reach the internet. I think sc's run down is probably a better account of best after sales service to worst. Buying an outrmer pretty much guarantees good after sales service..Buying a lagoon or FP, well, you get what you pay for, so e people want the outremer after sales service without paying the premium and like to complain a lot when they don't get it. Fortunately the larger volume manufacturers have pretty much ironed out the major flaws and any fix ups needed are low cost.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

FPs biggest issue has not been structural but the osmosis, blistering and sometimes delamination (which would be structural if not caught early on) associated with these and these are well documented here and elsewhere. Yeloya posted about it here and he owns an Orana. I think other models had these problems also.

I'm not putting down anyone's boat. I might buy an FP and I always liked the Bahia.

Not only Orana's but almost all of the Lavezzi's and some FP's motor catamarans built in the same frame of time have had the osmosis problem. We treated more than a dozens of them including mines (I have two Orana's ..) all of them under warranty of FP. Some of them were treated 5-6 years ago and they never had the same problem again.
I've said 100 times, I can say once more; the finish is not comparable to the new models of FP but sails better than any newer models (yes, Sand crab Bahia's are faster, but Orana which is 3 ft shorter offers more space ..) and believe me they are extremely strong boats. I am not a conservative sailor and she's been tested up against every possible challenge..

The one you are refering to (removed thread) I believe was the hull #1 which I know very well, that's totally a different discussion that I don't want to initiate again.

Cheers

Yeloya

[cwjohm]

Cruisers forum is great in regards to specific issues. It is poor in regard to brand comparison. The trouble is that people frequently post supposedly informed statements that are based on NO empirical information whatsoever, usually loosely based on posts from someone who has an issue and is incapable or unable to deal with the manufacturer.

FP osmosis is a typical example. A problem that is now nearly 5 years old and has by and large been well rectified by FP.

It stands to reason the FP and Lagoon, manufacturing ten times the amount of boats as the niche suppliers will have more public issues, but it is only by comparing statistical data from each supplier that one could make any definitive statement.

On the other hand to state that Outremer and Catana have NO problems is ridiculous, and it is simply not true. They are great brands for sure, but they produce fewer boats than FP and Lagoon so any meaningful comparison would have to be based on hard statistical data.

My advice to anyone contemplating buying a new boat is to ignore all of the uninformed opinions here on quality, and as long as they stick to the established manufacturers they will get a good quality boat. The decision therefore should be based on a whole lot of other issues based on specific information that may be provided on this forum as long as it provided by actual sailors rather than internet surfers.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Not only Orana's but almost all of the Lavezzi's and some FP's motor catamarans built in the same frame of time have had the osmosis problem. We treated more than a dozens of them including mines (I have two Orana's ..) all of them under warranty of FP. Some of them were treated 5-6 years ago and they never had the same problem again.
I've said 100 times, I can say once more; the finish is not comparable to the new models of FP but sails better than any newer models (yes, Sand crab Bahia's are faster, but Orana which is 3 ft shorter offers more space ..) and believe me they are extremely strong boats. I am not a conservative sailor and she's been tested up against every possible challenge..

The one you are refering to (removed thread) I believe was the hull #1 which I know very well, that's totally a different discussion that I don't want to initiate again.

Cheers

Yeloya

As Yeloya and Sand Crab have indicated if one has followed catamarans long enough you would be aware of osmosis issues with various FP models and certainly of structural issues with one Orana which was never fully exposed. It would certainly be interesting to know the full story with the Orana otherwise it remains a big Q mark with that particular vessel. Yes it did happen.

Facts of life that I have never heard it being denied and there is no need to be sensitive about it. Would it prevent me from purchasing a FP. No.
But it is important to be aware.

Thanks to the internet we also know of issues with several of the SA manufactures and whilst some might call they unsubstantiated allegations they serve a purpose to prospective purchases that buyer beware is alive and well in the boat building area.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

My advice to anyone contemplating buying a new boat is to ignore all of the uninformed opinions here on quality, and as long as they stick to the established manufacturers they will get a good quality boat.

I wouldn't go that far. That's like saying the quality of most boats is comparable. With "established manufacturers" buyers are guaranteed no more than getting a boat whose "quality", aka value, has been established by the market at that price point. There are real differences among builders and some contributors here can offer first hand comparisons. It's incumbent on the reader to separate the valuable info from BS. I'll add that build quality is a separate topic than design and intent of purpose. A terrific racing boat could be a horrible cruiser, and vice versa....

2 Hulls Dave

[Sand crab]

Thanks guys for backing me up. You all have more experience than me but I have this flaw which hinders me in social encounters which is my ability to remember things I read or heard with or without pictures. But I can't find my car keys.

I never said FP, Lagoon or Catana were bad boats, just that they were average in the issues department. I would buy any of these in a heartbeat subject to survey, etc.
I like L380s, 400s, 410s etc and the 440s are extremely popular. Same with all of FPs boats and Catanas. I wouldn't say no to a Dean either but would look at it (very) carefully.

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I would buy any of these in a heartbeat subject to survey, etc.

But now you're mixing "quality" with intent of purpose. Certainly you're too smart to buy a high quality boat that didn't meet your needs or preferences. The available designs hit vastly different triggers....

2 Hulls Dave