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Old 20-02-2015, 06:22   #226
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Dave, my boat had holes drilled in the bulkheads from the engine compartments in order to run cable for the wind generator/radar/solar panels that had not been factory installed. It happens.

As to 99% of new cats today having air conditioning/diesel generators - at a certain size, that is probably close to being true, espeically for boats in Florida or other hot, humid climates. However, I strongly suspect it is not even close to being true for boats being delivered to Canada, the UK and much of Europe (and I also suspect that not many of the Fla built Mantas were delivered there). But again, the total numbers are simply unproveable.

The point is that while pbr would never have a cat without air con and a diesel generator (or for that matter, with a skeg or partial skeg on the rudder), a number of people on this site do and prefer it that way. Lets face it, you, me and smj don't have air. Although he hasn't piped in here, I am also pretty confident that 44CC doesn't have air. Of course, we all prefer to stay away from marinas and have boats that are well ventilated.

Many of the current cats save money by reducing the number of hatches, expecting clients to opt for (and pay for) air con and diesel generators. Consider the FP Mahe 36, which when originally introduced did not have any large opening hatches on the foreward end of the coachouse. Furthrmore, many recent cats have hatches for aft cabins that are covered by solid biminis and which will not permit open air flow under anchor. Some have no dedicated opening hatches over the galley area.

On my passage New York to Bermuda on a Beneteau 50 at the end of June, I found the aft cabin stifling once in Bermuda (a combination of poor headroom over the berth and poor ventilation). The same was true during my charter on a Jeanneau 44i out of St. Martin just one week ago: the small, opening, overhead hatch in the aft cabin was not located over the berth, but over the small area in the cabin with standing headroom. Since it was located under the dodger and under all lines led aft into the cockpit - halyards, reefing lines, furling line and mainsheet, it was useless. The only opening portlights into the cabin were from the cockpit sole - useless for ventilation. Furthermore, the fan was located above a cabinet so that it could not be directed down on one half of the berth. Those aft cabins needed a generator and aircon, no matter where it was berthed!

In an earlier post, SMJ referred to the importance of proper ventilation and of course, he was spot on if you wish to avoid the complexity, cost, noise, pollution and weight associated with generators and air (to say nothing of needing more trips to marinas for refueling).

Brad

PS Mark, anchorages need not be 'bug free' if you have screens on your hatches - something else missing on so many new boats!
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Old 20-02-2015, 07:26   #227
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Even a generator - since I have not met a single boat out here that does not have some sort of generator on board. Not a single one. Even the smallest, barest, cheapest boats have at least a Honda on them now.
When we get a chance to share a rum I'll invite you aboard to be the first one, then.

I have to admit we carried a Honda one season in an attempt to save engine hours charging batts when underway on multi-day passages. Our solars can't keep up when we sail overnight and if we don't have to motor due to light air we're in a battery death spiral. It worked fine until it didn't and I have since abandoned that scheme.

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Of course, I'm sure your bug-free and cool anchorages are also very sunny and windy. We aren't skilled enough to find these consistently.
I didn't say "cool". But usually the solar heat decreases significantly right around sunset. Happens every time.

I'm with you on the electric winches, although we have one for the mainsail. I don't consider that a luxury and it is also necessary for Donna to get me up the mast. She weighs less than 100 lbs. and although we have properly sized winches I don't want her to have a heart attack when I'm half way up. Most of the 471s have electric primaries, but we don't. It makes us better tackers.

Just another thought on the gen set thing, I expect probably 100% - if not more - of new charter boats have 'em with AC and the charter companies probably require it of new boats coming into charter. Buyers putting new boats into charter probably have no choice because charter parties expect it. In a way, this is OK with me because then there's less competition for my secret bug free anchorages....

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Old 20-02-2015, 07:34   #228
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Google and you will find examples of shaft drive wrapping lines in props and either pulling the shaft out or tearing off a skeg and sinking.



It isn't good either way.



Mark

I'm guessing when you wrap a line around a prop you are probably on the boat. Seems to me it would be much easier to stop or slow down the flow of water coming from a 1" shaft than it would be from the hole cut in the hull to accommodate the Saildrive.
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Old 20-02-2015, 08:06   #229
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Maybe we read this differently. I read 99% of boats being sold come with AC.

Mark
it all depends on your prospective market...mostly if you cater to us citizen you will need AC..usually the french do not use them (or did not 4/5 years ago) however you'll find a generator in most boats.
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Old 20-02-2015, 08:15   #230
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I'm guessing when you wrap a line around a prop you are probably on the boat. Seems to me it would be much easier to stop or slow down the flow of water coming from a 1" shaft than it would be from the hole cut in the hull to accommodate the Saildrive.
I am a big believer in rope/line cutters to avoid this in either case.
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Old 20-02-2015, 11:00   #231
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

I'll just add that I've never seen a Manta without aircon. Those boats are like the Antares. They only come one way and that's loaded. For better or worse. You decide.

I grew up in Florida and it's f*#kin hot there. I never got used to it and never will. Aircon will be on my boat.
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Old 20-02-2015, 11:18   #232
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I'll just add that I've never seen a Manta without aircon. Those boats are like the Antares. They only come one way and that's loaded. For better or worse. You decide.

I grew up in Florida and it's f*#kin hot there. I never got used to it and never will. Aircon will be on my boat.
Actually the Manta's did not come standard "loaded," we had a base price and offered a unique "Pac system" approach for outfitting factory direct. There were three levels of pac's addressing major areas of outfitting such as safety, anchoring, comfort, electronics etc. The fact is all of our owners had control of outfitting, we just made it and the bottom line easier to understand. The average Manta had 100k of owner selected options.
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Old 20-02-2015, 11:20   #233
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

P.S. The Antares is like the Manta, not the other way around, we were doing it this way long before them.
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Old 20-02-2015, 11:24   #234
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

The entire aluminum hardtop structure was an option on the Manta (it became standard on much later models). I don't think a single person didn't get that option.

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Old 20-02-2015, 11:29   #235
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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The entire aluminum hardtop structure was an option on the Manta (it became standard on much later models). I don't think a single person didn't get that option.

Mark
That's true. We actually would have preferred to sell the boat turn key, but because the rest of the market was using the base price approach, we had to. For a long time we were the only manufacturer offering a catamaran that was fully outfitted for global cruising factory direct.
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Old 20-02-2015, 11:39   #236
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

BTW I grew up in St. Pete right across the bay from where the Mantas were made.

Did I say it was hot there?
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Old 25-02-2015, 13:04   #237
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Feel like I learned a lot from this thread. Been a longtime reader here, but this is my first time posting.

The Antares 44i was on a short list of dream boats for several years. I never considered a FP until I spent some time on a friend's 57' Sanya, which I loved. It got me looking at the Saba and the Helia at the Miami Sail Only show. This was the year for me to finally make a decision and put some money down on the boat that will be my home for the next 5-10 years. I've been doing a lot of research and have been spending time on other people's boats and talking to a lot of owners.

The FPs sail better than I thought they would. What was missing for me was the ability to tweak the boat. They come how they come, and you'd have to go to a yard to have the boat modified to suit your tastes.

I spent some time in the Bahamas with Antares 44i owners, and the performance came up a lot. These are slow boats. Maybe the owners had them too loaded down? They are practically 40' boats with extended sterns. Comparing them to a 50' Saba isn't quite fair, but then you can get the Saba for less than you spend on the Antares right now (if buying with dollars).

So what did I buy? At every boat show, my girlfriend and I kept finding ourselves drawn to the same boat, over and over. It was the St. Francis 50. I did a few hundred miles on a St. Francis this year, and I was blown away by the performance. I've always like the dinghy sitting on chocks, rather than dangling from lines (a product of my time as a power boat captain, I think. And my desire to carry as large a dinghy as possible).

We were doing 70%+ windspeed downwind with screecher and main. In 15 kts of true wind, that meant moving at 9 kts and barely feeling anything apparent. It was spooky. On a reach, we were doing 10-11 in 20 kts. Having cruised on a 27' monohull for years, I felt like we were flying. We left the dock in 30 kts of wind, with gusts higher, and it blowing all night like that, and in 8 - 10 foot seas on the quarter, I was in the galley cooking breakfast. With the main reefed all the way down and just a bit of the genny out, we were doing 10 kts without feeling pressed. I emailed the builder underway and told them that the next hull was not for sale. Living on the boat for a few days, eating, showering, sailing, etc., made my mind up.

I'm only a few weeks into working with the builders, but they have been amazing thus far. The amount of customization is just ridiculous. They are building me the boat I want for less than the Antares would've cost, for a boat that's bigger, faster, more storage, bigger dinghy, etc. Large fixed portholes are going in the hull to really give some light down below, a new design that the builder and I came up with during the show. And the windows in the salon are being expanded on the next hull to let in more light, also giving the boat an updated look on the outside. Both these changes will probably be standard going forward. Things like this allowed me to get what I loved about the Saba (light, aesthetics) and the Antares (build quality, storage), for less than I would've paid for either.

All these boats are great boats, I feel. I would've been happy on any of them. There's no wrong answer except for not going to sea at all, in my opinion.
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Old 25-02-2015, 13:18   #238
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by Hugh Howey View Post
Feel like I learned a lot from this thread. Been a longtime reader here, but this is my first time posting.

The Antares 44i was on a short list of dream boats for several years. I never considered a FP until I spent some time on a friend's 57' Sanya, which I loved. It got me looking at the Saba and the Helia at the Miami Sail Only show. This was the year for me to finally make a decision and put some money down on the boat that will be my home for the next 5-10 years. I've been doing a lot of research and have been spending time on other people's boats and talking to a lot of owners.

The FPs sail better than I thought they would. What was missing for me was the ability to tweak the boat. They come how they come, and you'd have to go to a yard to have the boat modified to suit your tastes.

I spent some time in the Bahamas with Antares 44i owners, and the performance came up a lot. These are slow boats. Maybe the owners had them too loaded down? They are practically 40' boats with extended sterns. Comparing them to a 50' Saba isn't quite fair, but then you can get the Saba for less than you spend on the Antares right now (if buying with dollars).

So what did I buy? At every boat show, my girlfriend and I kept finding ourselves drawn to the same boat, over and over. It was the St. Francis 50. I did a few hundred miles on a St. Francis this year, and I was blown away by the performance. I've always like the dinghy sitting on chocks, rather than dangling from lines (a product of my time as a power boat captain, I think. And my desire to carry as large a dinghy as possible).

We were doing 70%+ windspeed downwind with screecher and main. In 15 kts of true wind, that meant moving at 9 kts and barely feeling anything apparent. It was spooky. On a reach, we were doing 10-11 in 20 kts. Having cruised on a 27' monohull for years, I felt like we were flying. We left the dock in 30 kts of wind, with gusts higher, and it blowing all night like that, and in 8 - 10 foot seas on the quarter, I was in the galley cooking breakfast. With the main reefed all the way down and just a bit of the genny out, we were doing 10 kts without feeling pressed. I emailed the builder underway and told them that the next hull was not for sale. Living on the boat for a few days, eating, showering, sailing, etc., made my mind up.

I'm only a few weeks into working with the builders, but they have been amazing thus far. The amount of customization is just ridiculous. They are building me the boat I want for less than the Antares would've cost, for a boat that's bigger, faster, more storage, bigger dinghy, etc. Large fixed portholes are going in the hull to really give some light down below, a new design that the builder and I came up with during the show. And the windows in the salon are being expanded on the next hull to let in more light, also giving the boat an updated look on the outside. Both these changes will probably be standard going forward. Things like this allowed me to get what I loved about the Saba (light, aesthetics) and the Antares (build quality, storage), for less than I would've paid for either.

All these boats are great boats, I feel. I would've been happy on any of them. There's no wrong answer except for not going to sea at all, in my opinion.
Congrasts! The St Francis seems like an amazing boat. We had taken it out of our list primarily because we think the interior has a specific "classic" aesthetic that we don't like. Yet, we should consider it again if they really allow significant customization.

Thanks for posting and keep us updated on your work with the builders. Maybe start a new thread so we can follow the build process :-). Best wishes. BB.
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Old 25-02-2015, 13:40   #239
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by Hugh Howey View Post
So what did I buy? At every boat show, my girlfriend and I kept finding ourselves drawn to the same boat, over and over. It was the St. Francis 50.

I'm only a few weeks into working with the builders, but they have been amazing thus far. The amount of customization is just ridiculous. They are building me the boat I want for less than the Antares would've cost, for a boat that's bigger, faster, more storage, bigger dinghy, etc. Large fixed portholes are going in the hull to really give some light down below, a new design that the builder and I came up with during the show. And the windows in the salon are being expanded on the next hull to let in more light, also giving the boat an updated look on the outside. Both these changes will probably be standard going forward. Things like this allowed me to get what I loved about the Saba (light, aesthetics) and the Antares (build quality, storage), for less than I would've paid for either.
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Originally Posted by BlueBuddha View Post
Congrasts! Thanks for posting and keep us updated on your work with the builders. Maybe start a new thread so we can follow the build process :-). Best wishes. BB.
+++1

Hugh, it would be great if you could start a build thread on your St. Francis. It's always been my personal favorite. I think on this tread earlier I said that there are few boats that hit my three must haves, bulkhead helm, large tender storage, and build strength. Pictures if you have them
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Old 25-02-2015, 14:03   #240
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Hugh, the owner of Multihulls 4 Us Forum had a SF50 built. There were lots of issues. It's all in there. He does love his boat but it was a major PIA. Read "Suliere, A shattering experience" and others.

Good Luck though.
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