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Old 19-02-2015, 15:45   #211
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I apologize about the "real job" comment. That was inappropriate and demeaning.

So, tell us about all the hundreds of cruising cats you're built and sold? 35 years ago (1980) I doubt any had gen sets and A/C back then. I've never met a Wharram with anything like that. I don't remember seeing the first FRP production cruising cat at the Annapolis show until about 85 or 86. It was a big Privilege 51 (?) owned by Dennis Conner, I recall.

Dave
Dave, pbr is the designer and builder of Manta catamarans, as well as some custom boats. They pretty much all came with generator and AC.

We have these, and while we rarely need the AC while on the hook, it is a god-send in a marina. Even while on the hook, there are times with no wind, 90+ degrees and swarms of mosquitos and noseeums. The only way to keep one's marriage and sanity is to close up the boat, turn on the AC for an hour or so while cooking in the evening, and cool down everything for bed.

And during those times I need to work on the engine and it is so hot and humid that I am blind with sweat and dripping rivers of sweat onto and into every part of the engine --- I turn on that AC in the engine compartment and say to hell with the 1/4kt of speed I am losing!

Mark
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Old 19-02-2015, 16:00   #212
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

OK, I hear ya Mark. And I have always liked the Mantas, but I seriously doubt the 99% number. Just because he built them that way doesn't mean he should have. The only place I've ever craved A/C is July and August on the Chesapeake. Not needed in the tropics as long as you stay away from marinas.

So, do you have "engine rooms" or "engine access with head room"?

Dave
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Old 19-02-2015, 16:12   #213
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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OK, I hear ya Mark. And I have always liked the Mantas, but I seriously doubt the 99% number. Just because he built them that way doesn't mean he should have. The only place I've ever craved A/C is July and August on the Chesapeake. Not needed in the tropics as long as you stay away from marinas.

So, do you have "engine rooms" or "engine access with head room"?

Dave
The Manta's were to small for separate engine rooms. The discussions we were having were about much larger boats. 44-50ft. In the 80's I was selling center cockpit mono hulls to the exact same demographic and criteria. I saw the potential for cats to service that criteria even better and was the first and only builder of a cat in this size range in the U.S. for over a decade. 99% of the center cockpit mono hulls in the 80's were outfitted with generator and air based on customer request, and the criteria has not changed one bit with catamarans in the 2000's. I didn't build them standard with generator and air, it was an option which 99% took.
Of course today it is even better since the weight and efficiency has improved so much. I am glad you are happy without gen and air but that is not the market.
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Old 19-02-2015, 16:13   #214
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

P.S. technically the Manta has engine access with headroom and air conditioning since the engines are under the berth with tilt up access.
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Old 19-02-2015, 16:14   #215
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
OK, I hear ya Mark. And I have always liked the Mantas, but I seriously doubt the 99% number. Just because he built them that way doesn't mean he should have. The only place I've ever craved A/C is July and August on the Chesapeake. Not needed in the tropics as long as you stay away from marinas.

So, do you have "engine rooms" or "engine access with head room"?

Dave
I believe the 99% number. Ask the Lagoon, FP and Leopard owners about AC and generators. Check out the charter companies and see if they can even charter out boats now without AC and generator. Right there probably accounts for 80%+.

Again, when it is no wind, 90+ and swarming biting bugs in the tropics (and we do experience this many times in the summer months here), closing up the boat with an hour or so of AC before bed saves your sanity and marriage.

I'll grant you the generator, but the AC units themselves weigh 60 lbs for a 16kBTU unit. If a boat is to spend any time at all in a marina, this weight is negligible. There is no "maintenance" to them - ours are 16yrs old and I have never had to do anything to them. I may even have forgotten where they are located...

We have "engine rooms". When not working on the engines, they convert back to "state rooms".

Mark
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Old 19-02-2015, 16:26   #216
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I believe the 99% number. Ask the Lagoon, FP and Leopard owners about AC and generators. Check out the charter companies and see if they can even charter out boats now without AC and generator. Right there probably accounts for 80%+.

Again, when it is no wind, 90+ and swarming biting bugs in the tropics (and we do experience this many times in the summer months here), closing up the boat with an hour or so of AC before bed saves your sanity and marriage.

I'll grant you the generator, but the AC units themselves weigh 60 lbs for a 16kBTU unit. If a boat is to spend any time at all in a marina, this weight is negligible. There is no "maintenance" to them - ours are 16yrs old and I have never had to do anything to them. I may even have forgotten where they are located...

We have "engine rooms". When not working on the engines, they convert back to "state rooms".

Mark
A little trivia: Back in the late seventies and early 80's my father designed and built the smallest direct drive 4kw diesel generator ever seen. As I recall there were two on Kialoa. My brother put one on his 33 ft monohull with a single 12000 btu ac. He would pull into anchorages in the summer when there was no wind and plenty of rain and bugs. People that were anchored nearby on million dollar Swan's would dinghy over and beg him to let them sleep on the salon floor for the night.
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Old 19-02-2015, 16:45   #217
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I believe the 99% number. Ask the Lagoon, FP and Leopard owners about AC and generators. Check out the charter companies and see if they can even charter out boats now without AC and generator. Right there probably accounts for 80%+.
Of course, charterers are not cruisers. And what about all the older PDQs and Geminis? 99% of those? Sorry.... For sure the McMansions have all the goodies + even dishwashers. Call me Old School, but that's not living off the grid and being independent when you need to burn so many dinosaurs.

Let's call a truce on this because we'll never prove it one way or another. I have never craved A/C in the tropics and have never been bothered by bugs on an anchorage in the tropics. It's too bad so many future cruisers buying boats with plans to cruise the tropics don't know this. Marinas and still anchorages are another thing. As for marriages, if I told Donna I was planning to get a gen set and A/C she'd jump ship. Too noisy. It drives her crazy to just be NEAR another boat running a generator all night. Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle - it IS obnoxious- and sooooo power boat.

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Old 19-02-2015, 16:55   #218
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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In boats I have been involved with the manufacturing over 25 years and 150 plus boats I have never had a saildrive seal fail. The manufacturer recommends replacing them every 10 years as a maintenance precaution but they are in such good shape at that point I know of no one that has, and most are using seals that are close to 20 years old.

There was the Lagoon that got its dinghy painter caught in the prop, I believe those seals failed and the boat sank. Also friends were turning a Catana 42 around at a dock, line got caught on the Saildrive and tore the seals loose. The boat was sinking but lucky for them the dock they were at also had a travel lift. It was saved before it sank. My guess is if those were shaft drive props, there probably wouldn't have been any water intrusion.
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Old 19-02-2015, 17:01   #219
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Also friends were turning a Catana 42 around at a dock, line got caught on the Saildrive and tore the seals loose. The boat was sinking but lucky for them the dock they were at also had a travel lift.
C'mon, smj! That's baloney! Baloney = BS

The boat was sinking? Even IF what you describe is true about "tore the seals loose" the most it would have done is flood the "engine access with headroom". No matter what you call it, that will not sink the boat.

Give me a break. You're smarter than this.

Dave
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Old 19-02-2015, 17:14   #220
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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C'mon, smj! That's baloney! Baloney = BS



The boat was sinking? Even IF what you describe is true about "tore the seals loose" the most it would have done is flood the "engine access with headroom". No matter what you call it, that will not sink the boat.



Give me a break. You're smarter than this.



Dave

Absolutely true Dave, heard it from the horses mouth. The yard was closed so the fee to haul that evening was pretty high. I don't know the boat, but I'm sure some owners of the older Catanas have probably drilled holes in the watertight bulkheads to run wires or maybe plumbing for the hot water heater. The boat was at the yard for a survey, ended up selling for a low price and needed both saildrives replaced. I had actually made a low offer on the boat a couple of months earlier, ended up selling for what I had offered.
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Old 19-02-2015, 17:39   #221
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I don't know the boat, but I'm sure some owners of the older Catanas have probably drilled holes in the watertight bulkheads to run wires or maybe plumbing for the hot water heater.
I don't know the boat either, but there is absolutely no reason to drill holes in the bulkhead to "run wires or maybe plumbing for the hot water heater". The water heaters are all factory installed and ALL penetrations in the bulkhead are way above the water line plus a large margin, as you would expect, AND back filled with sealant to encase any electrical or plumbing lines. I had occasion to run another hose through the "engine access with headroom" bulkhead and found plenty of room through engineered penetrations along side existing lines after clearing away sealant.

Sorry. I just don't believe the "sinking" story and it just doesn't make sense. Suggest you get another "horse".

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Old 19-02-2015, 18:06   #222
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I don't know the boat either, but there is absolutely no reason to drill holes in the bulkhead to "run wires or maybe plumbing for the hot water heater". The water heaters are all factory installed and ALL penetrations in the bulkhead are way above the water line plus a large margin, as you would expect, AND back filled with sealant to encase any electrical or plumbing lines. I had occasion to run another hose through the "engine access with headroom" bulkhead and found plenty of room through engineered penetrations along side existing lines after clearing away sealant.



Sorry. I just don't believe the "sinking" story and it just doesn't make sense. Suggest you get another "horse".



Dave

This is a early nineties 42'er so things may have been done differently back then. Also a boat that age is likely to have had a few owners and possibly one of those owners was a bone head
The horse has many sea miles on him and has made his living repairing boats but if I see him hanging around the stables maybe I'll share some hay and try to get some more of the story. I hope he isn't an ass!
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Old 20-02-2015, 01:01   #223
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I don't know the boat either, but there is absolutely no reason to drill holes in the bulkhead to "run wires or maybe plumbing for the hot water heater".
......
Dave
Maybe they were trying to get aircon into the "engine room"? ;-)

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Old 20-02-2015, 06:01   #224
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Of course, charterers are not cruisers. And what about all the older PDQs and Geminis? 99% of those? Sorry.... For sure the McMansions have all the goodies + even dishwashers. Call me Old School, but that's not living off the grid and being independent when you need to burn so many dinosaurs.

Let's call a truce on this because we'll never prove it one way or another. I have never craved A/C in the tropics and have never been bothered by bugs on an anchorage in the tropics. It's too bad so many future cruisers buying boats with plans to cruise the tropics don't know this. Marinas and still anchorages are another thing. As for marriages, if I told Donna I was planning to get a gen set and A/C she'd jump ship. Too noisy. It drives her crazy to just be NEAR another boat running a generator all night. Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle - it IS obnoxious- and sooooo power boat.

Dave
Maybe we read this differently. I read 99% of boats being sold come with AC. PDQ hasn't been sold in many years, but the Gemini's are still sold. Gemini does offer AC and generator as options, so it would be interesting to know how many take those. Charter boats are still sold, so they must be included. The number may not be that high, but I bet 75%+ are sold that way, or refitted soon after. A truce isn't necessary since I spend no time being concerned about what equipment is on new boats. It took me a while to think about the above, since I have never considered it before, which led me to conclude that this number really is probably quite high.

I think you are harsh using the presence of an AC unit to draw a line between "McMansions" and "real cruisers". Even a generator - since I have not met a single boat out here that does not have some sort of generator on board. Not a single one. Even the smallest, barest, cheapest boats have at least a Honda on them now.

And those Hondas are far more obnoxious than a fixed diesel genset - particularly one with an exhaust/water separator. I bet you could anchor right next to a Manta running its generator and your wife would not only maintain her sanity, it is unlikely she would even know the genset was running.

One can "live off the grid" and still have a generator. Believe it or not, there are times out here where there is no sun and no wind. Actually, a good part of the summer months in a lot of the tropics are like this. You are going to burn those dinosaurs some way if you want any power.

Of course, I'm sure your bug-free and cool anchorages are also very sunny and windy. We aren't skilled enough to find these consistently.

Now electric winches - there is a McMansion piece of equipment! I even know people who buy boats with them and sheepishly try to tell us all that they don't use themů

Mark
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Old 20-02-2015, 06:19   #225
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
There was the Lagoon that got its dinghy painter caught in the prop, I believe those seals failed and the boat sank. Also friends were turning a Catana 42 around at a dock, line got caught on the Saildrive and tore the seals loose. The boat was sinking but lucky for them the dock they were at also had a travel lift. It was saved before it sank. My guess is if those were shaft drive props, there probably wouldn't have been any water intrusion.
Google and you will find examples of shaft drive wrapping lines in props and either pulling the shaft out or tearing off a skeg and sinking.

It isn't good either way.

Mark
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