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Old 19-02-2015, 10:25   #196
pbr
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Witness the case of the Lagoon in Thailand that sunk because the engine compartment was not waterproof and flooded the hull. Then long legal battle ensued.

Anyone with saildrives would do well to make sure their engine compartment is water tight and that the manufacturer guarantees, in writing, that it is.
I have seen far more flooding or sinking's due to straight shaft couplers coming loose and taking out the shaft log, than I have seen any failures of saildrive hull seals.
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Old 19-02-2015, 11:02   #197
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
It is unfair to suggest that the Antares 44i is now being marketed as a world cruising boat for couples/small families because charter companies would no longer purchase them; rather, the Antares 44i (and its predecessor, the 42) were never intended for, nor marketed to the large charter companies. Characteristics beyond the relative lack of beam and corresponding interior space were and still are at play here:

- on more recent boats, a cockpit with a solid windshield/wipers that provides perhaps the ultimate in protection/comfort for the helmsperson. This is not required in a charter boat that will generally be sailing for relatively short distances in relatively benign conditions, but matters in a boat intended to circumnavigate, as per the wishes of the OP.
- prop shafts versus saildrives. Typically more reliable, albeit the engine placement does take up some additional interior space. They also permit servicing from the interior - a much safer and drier environment when offshore than through small exterior hatches mounted on the aft decks. Again, not an issue for a charter boat where space is king and where all sevicing will be done by the charter company.
- a properly braced galley. The galley down has bracing on all sides, important in a seaway for a circumnavigator. It is much less important to charter parties who will virtually never prepare meals when underway.
- a walkway dividing the forward trampolines. Again, important to the circumnavigator for a couple of reasons: 1. the tramp is stronger in that there are two smaller tramps supported on 8 sides, rather than a much larger one supported on 4 sides (keep in mind that the large tramps on some charter-type cats have been blown out in heavy conditions offshore). 2. It is a much more secure way to go forward to the roller reefing , should it jam when underway. Again, neither of these features matter to charter parties.
- interior with rounded edges/doors and real wood trim/veneers. This isn't just 'old fashioned', or 'dated' styling as one poster suggested. Rounded edges/doors are more expensive to produce, but they save injuries while underway! Real wood veneer/trim is also more expensive, but then so is quality wood furniture rather than Ikea junk, modern in appearance or not.
- skegs on the rudders. Again, this adds expense, but it also ensures that steering will not be disabled offshore by a bent rudder stock, such as occurred to Alpha 42 hull number one, requiring its abandonment.
- adequate, well-placed hatches for ventilation. Important when sailing offshore and when under anchor in tropcial climates, albeit while adding additonal expense in manufacture.
- proper steering systems. Expensive, but both more durable and able to provide more feel.
- superior bridgedeck clearance (especially in view of the relatively narrow beam, which is proabably the critical factor) in relation to the cats designed for the charter market. Again, not so critical for charter parties due to the relatively short sails in relatively benign condition that can be anticipated.

I could go on, but must agree with 2hulls that we are comparing apples and oranges when comparing the Antares 44i with a boat of similar size that has designed and built primarily for the charter market. As to performance - as has been pointed out, that is not simply a question of what boat sails at what speed in certain wind conditions. The ability to sail comfortably at a certain speeds in heavy conditions is undeniably an aspect of real world performance - something which is enhanced by higher bridgedeck clearance, a secure galley, a well-protected helm, rounded joinerwork, etc,etc.

Brad

Attaching spade rudder design and reliability to anything that happened to the Alpha cat is absurd. The Alpha steering system was under engineered and missing key parts like rudder stops. The rudder shafts were undersized and the tiller arms were not thru bolted. Skeg hung rudders add lots of wetted surface and drag and cannot employ counter balance. It is probably more expensive to build proper spade rudders because they require stronger shafts. I have built over 120 cruising catamarans with spade rudders and have had no problems with bent shafts or lack of reliability. Think of all the racing and cruising monohulls with much larger and deeper rudders that have no reliability problems. Now inject complete composite construction rudder and shaft, and the associated reduced weight and spade rudders advantages become even more compelling. Skeg hung rudders are not necessary and have some distinct performance disadvantages.
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Old 19-02-2015, 11:13   #198
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Run the motor on the other hull if the galley is in use.
What is needed in cruising catamarans for owner operators and servicing, are separate engine rooms with watertight bulkhead and standing headroom. The demographic that is spending 1 mill should not have to crawl on hands and knees and stand on their head to perform service. No one is currently offering this in this size range. For the most part engine rooms are and have been an afterthought when in fact should be given very high priority. Other features that should be included in the engine room, is storage for old and new oil, tools, small work bench, engine lift point in the overhead and on/off ducting for air conditioning when doing routine maintenance
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Old 19-02-2015, 11:24   #199
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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The demographic that is spending 1 mill should not have to crawl on hands and knees and stand on their head to perform service. No one is currently offering this in this size range.
Hmmm, I don't think you're right on that. I have standing head room in my engine rooms, although my boat is not "currently" offered any longer. But I have seen some cramped ones that serve as a disincentive to good maintenance...

Quote:
....and on/off ducting for air conditioning when doing routine maintenance
Well, you've got me there. I don't have A/C anywhere on the boat and if I did it certainly wouldn't include the engine rooms.

Dave
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Old 19-02-2015, 11:29   #200
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Hmmm, I don't think you're right on that. I have standing head room in my engine rooms, although my boat is not "currently" offered any longer. But I have seen some cramped ones that serve as a disincentive to good maintenance...



Well, you've got me there. I don't have A/C anywhere on the boat and if I did it certainly wouldn't include the engine rooms.

Dave
What kind of cat do you have?

I have built several boats with ducting to the engine rooms with shut of plenums. It worked great when at anchor or dockside and performing service. Productivity difference is huge due to the added comfort.
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Old 19-02-2015, 11:44   #201
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Catana 471

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Originally Posted by pbr View Post
I have built several boats with ducting to the engine rooms with shut of plenums. It worked great when at anchor or dockside and performing service. Productivity difference is huge due to the added comfort.
Who wouldn't want A/C in the engine rooms? I'd like it in my garage at home, too. But I don't have it anywhere on the boat and don't need it. It's an extravagance I easily do without and well as many others. Besides, after working up a good sweat working in the engine rooms, the cold beer reward tastes really good.....

Dave
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Old 19-02-2015, 12:06   #202
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Does Maryland do a decent beer Dave? :-)
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Old 19-02-2015, 12:23   #203
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Catana 471



Who wouldn't want A/C in the engine rooms? I'd like it in my garage at home, too. But I don't have it anywhere on the boat and don't need it. It's an extravagance I easily do without and well as many others. Besides, after working up a good sweat working in the engine rooms, the cold beer reward tastes really good.....

Dave
I would call that engine access with head room not an engine room.

You obviously don't sell boats for a living, 99% of buyers of cruising cat's would not go without AC and generator.
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Old 19-02-2015, 12:30   #204
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

PBR, I was not suggesting that the spade rudder design on the Alpha 42 was the paradigm for such a system; I do suggest, however, that it is much, much more difficult to bend the rudder stock if it has an attachment point below the hull (either a partial, or full skeg). Simply put, spade rudders are more susceptible to damage if the rudders strike something when underway.

Brad
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Old 19-02-2015, 12:53   #205
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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PBR, I was not suggesting that the spade rudder design on the Alpha 42 was the paradigm for such a system; I do suggest, however, that it is much, much more difficult to bend the rudder stock if it has an attachment point below the hull (either a partial, or full skeg). Simply put, spade rudders are more susceptible to damage if the rudders strike something when underway.

Brad
That is a maybe. I have seen skegs knocked off where the owner was not even aware of it, I have seen skegs foul rudders after hitting flotsam. Properly engineered spade rudders can be very tuff. In the boats I have produced I have never had one bent from flotsam or grounding. I for one would never put a skeg hung rudder on a catamaran.
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Old 19-02-2015, 13:31   #206
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I would call that engine access with head room not an engine room.
You can call it anything you want. But I'm not down on my hands and knees and I can easily move around three sides of the engine. Besides, "engine room" is a lot easier to say than "engine access with head room".

"Dear, I'll be going down into the starboard engine access with head room to do my fluid checks, OK?"

Quote:
You obviously don't sell boats for a living, 99% of buyers of cruising cat's would not go without AC and generator.
No, I had a real job. I don't buy your 99% figure, but regardless, many of them are wasting their money, depending on where they cruise, not to mention carrying around a lot of excess weight and adding to their maintenance chores.

Dave
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Old 19-02-2015, 13:37   #207
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Does Maryland do a decent beer Dave? :-)
I live in Virginia but my boat is currently on the hard in Maryland. Like most places in North America anymore there are more micro brews than I can keep up with. Seems they come and go constantly. The worst I ever had was terrific....
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Old 19-02-2015, 13:41   #208
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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You can call it anything you want. But I'm not down on my hands and knees and I can easily move around three sides of the engine.



No, I had a real job. I don't buy your 99% figure, but regardless, many of them are wasting their money, depending on where they cruise, not to mention carrying around a lot of excess weight and adding to their maintenance chores.

Dave
Someone had a "real" job that built your boat and sold it to you. My 99% number is based on real data from 35 years in the industry and many hundreds of boats built and sold. The few that didn't install ac and generator when purchased, came back and asked to have it installed after the fact.
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Old 19-02-2015, 13:50   #209
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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My 99% number is based on real data from 35 years in the industry and many hundreds of boats built and sold. The few that didn't install ac and generator when purchased, came back and asked to have it installed after the fact.
Fine. I still think 99% is high based on the number of owners I personally know who don't have both. And I've met quite a few in the tropics who didn't realize they didn't need AC until after they got there. So many of your 99% were probably making their decisions on false assumptions, or bad advice from a seller who wanted to make a little more coin.....

Dave
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Old 19-02-2015, 15:35   #210
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Someone had a "real" job that built your boat and sold it to you.
I apologize about the "real job" comment. That was inappropriate and demeaning.

So, tell us about all the hundreds of cruising cats you're built and sold? 35 years ago (1980) I doubt any had gen sets and A/C back then. I've never met a Wharram with anything like that. I don't remember seeing the first FRP production cruising cat at the Annapolis show until about 85 or 86. It was a big Privilege 51 (?) owned by Dennis Conner, I recall.

Dave
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