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Old 18-02-2015, 13:35   #181
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

There we go again.


DotDun was quite clear.


(1) Production boats are overpowered at high wind speeds given that when they are reefed they do not slow down


(2) Performance at low wind speeds can be augmented with larger sails like the Parasailor




He DID NOT say that larger sails are needed at high wind speeds.


The term "astronomical" generally refers to orders of magnitude. In fact at low wind speeds with larger sails the forces are approximately double and quite manageable without the sheets, rigging and winches being bigger.


I have a furling screecher and a parasailor either of which can be bought into play to deal with the perceived weaknesses of the boat at low wind speeds.


Terms like "condomoran", "charter boat" and "astronomical" are emotive and convey very little information. Significantly more $ can buy you better sailing performance - no question, but if you cannot afford the significant extra $ there are ways and means to improve sailing performance.
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Old 18-02-2015, 14:23   #182
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

No doubt there are ways to improve sailing performance, for both light and heavy boats. The heavier boat will never match the sailing performance of the lighter boat and the lighter boat can only match the comfort of the heavy boat by spending a lot of money.
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Old 18-02-2015, 14:42   #183
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

It is unfair to suggest that the Antares 44i is now being marketed as a world cruising boat for couples/small families because charter companies would no longer purchase them; rather, the Antares 44i (and its predecessor, the 42) were never intended for, nor marketed to the large charter companies. Characteristics beyond the relative lack of beam and corresponding interior space were and still are at play here:

- on more recent boats, a cockpit with a solid windshield/wipers that provides perhaps the ultimate in protection/comfort for the helmsperson. This is not required in a charter boat that will generally be sailing for relatively short distances in relatively benign conditions, but matters in a boat intended to circumnavigate, as per the wishes of the OP.
- prop shafts versus saildrives. Typically more reliable, albeit the engine placement does take up some additional interior space. They also permit servicing from the interior - a much safer and drier environment when offshore than through small exterior hatches mounted on the aft decks. Again, not an issue for a charter boat where space is king and where all sevicing will be done by the charter company.
- a properly braced galley. The galley down has bracing on all sides, important in a seaway for a circumnavigator. It is much less important to charter parties who will virtually never prepare meals when underway.
- a walkway dividing the forward trampolines. Again, important to the circumnavigator for a couple of reasons: 1. the tramp is stronger in that there are two smaller tramps supported on 8 sides, rather than a much larger one supported on 4 sides (keep in mind that the large tramps on some charter-type cats have been blown out in heavy conditions offshore). 2. It is a much more secure way to go forward to the roller reefing , should it jam when underway. Again, neither of these features matter to charter parties.
- interior with rounded edges/doors and real wood trim/veneers. This isn't just 'old fashioned', or 'dated' styling as one poster suggested. Rounded edges/doors are more expensive to produce, but they save injuries while underway! Real wood veneer/trim is also more expensive, but then so is quality wood furniture rather than Ikea junk, modern in appearance or not.
- skegs on the rudders. Again, this adds expense, but it also ensures that steering will not be disabled offshore by a bent rudder stock, such as occurred to Alpha 42 hull number one, requiring its abandonment.
- adequate, well-placed hatches for ventilation. Important when sailing offshore and when under anchor in tropcial climates, albeit while adding additonal expense in manufacture.
- proper steering systems. Expensive, but both more durable and able to provide more feel.
- superior bridgedeck clearance (especially in view of the relatively narrow beam, which is proabably the critical factor) in relation to the cats designed for the charter market. Again, not so critical for charter parties due to the relatively short sails in relatively benign condition that can be anticipated.

I could go on, but must agree with 2hulls that we are comparing apples and oranges when comparing the Antares 44i with a boat of similar size that has designed and built primarily for the charter market. As to performance - as has been pointed out, that is not simply a question of what boat sails at what speed in certain wind conditions. The ability to sail comfortably at a certain speeds in heavy conditions is undeniably an aspect of real world performance - something which is enhanced by higher bridgedeck clearance, a secure galley, a well-protected helm, rounded joinerwork, etc,etc.

Brad
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Old 18-02-2015, 17:00   #184
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Well said Southern Star. 😄👍
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Old 18-02-2015, 18:01   #185
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
It is unfair to suggest that the Antares 44i is now being marketed as a world cruising boat for couples/small families because charter companies would no longer purchase them; rather, the Antares 44i (and its predecessor, the 42) were never intended for, nor marketed to the large charter companies. Characteristics beyond the relative lack of beam and corresponding interior space were and still are at play here:

- on more recent boats, a cockpit with a solid windshield/wipers that provides perhaps the ultimate in protection/comfort for the helmsperson. This is not required in a charter boat that will generally be sailing for relatively short distances in relatively benign conditions, but matters in a boat intended to circumnavigate, as per the wishes of the OP.
I'll always defend a bulkhead helm. But, I've been on raised helm boat (FP, Leopard style) where the owner enclosed the helm in clears and believe I could live with it. Plenty of protection (sans windshield wiper).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
- prop shafts versus saildrives. Typically more reliable, albeit the engine placement does take up some additional interior space. They also permit servicing from the interior - a much safer and drier environment when offshore than through small exterior hatches mounted on the aft decks. Again, not an issue for a charter boat where space is king and where all sevicing will be done by the charter company.
Now for the downsides! Yep, you can work on the engine all safe and dry, in fact all that are indoors get to enjoy the experience too, including the heat, oil and diesel smell, and disruption of not using the living space while the work is going on. And don't forget to keep the engine real clean, that smell lingers for a long time. Routine maintenance isn't typically done underway, hence, this issue seems a little overblown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
- a properly braced galley. The galley down has bracing on all sides, important in a seaway for a circumnavigator. It is much less important to charter parties who will virtually never prepare meals when underway.
I would challenge any body who believes the galley down is safer than the u-shaped galley in the salon. Oh, and be sure to buy hearing protection for the chef, I measured >95db of engine/transmission noise in the galley of an Antares while motoring. Spending time doing that and you'll be saying "huh" for a day or two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
- a walkway dividing the forward trampolines. Again, important to the circumnavigator for a couple of reasons: 1. the tramp is stronger in that there are two smaller tramps supported on 8 sides, rather than a much larger one supported on 4 sides (keep in mind that the large tramps on some charter-type cats have been blown out in heavy conditions offshore). 2. It is a much more secure way to go forward to the roller reefing , should it jam when underway. Again, neither of these features matter to charter parties.
Why is it that roller furlers don't jam on charter boats? Walkway to the furler is a good thing...get the FP bow sprit and it's a built-in feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
- interior with rounded edges/doors and real wood trim/veneers. This isn't just 'old fashioned', or 'dated' styling as one poster suggested. Rounded edges/doors are more expensive to produce, but they save injuries while underway! Real wood veneer/trim is also more expensive, but then so is quality wood furniture rather than Ikea junk, modern in appearance or not.
all subjective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
- skegs on the rudders. Again, this adds expense, but it also ensures that steering will not be disabled offshore by a bent rudder stock, such as occurred to Alpha 42 hull number one, requiring its abandonment.
Skeg mounted rudders are a good thing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
- adequate, well-placed hatches for ventilation. Important when sailing offshore and when under anchor in tropcial climates, albeit while adding additonal expense in manufacture.
- proper steering systems. Expensive, but both more durable and able to provide more feel.
- superior bridgedeck clearance (especially in view of the relatively narrow beam, which is proabably the critical factor) in relation to the cats designed for the charter market. Again, not so critical for charter parties due to the relatively short sails in relatively benign condition that can be anticipated.

I could go on, but must agree with 2hulls that we are comparing apples and oranges when comparing the Antares 44i with a boat of similar size that has designed and built primarily for the charter market. As to performance - as has been pointed out, that is not simply a question of what boat sails at what speed in certain wind conditions. The ability to sail comfortably at a certain speeds in heavy conditions is undeniably an aspect of real world performance - something which is enhanced by higher bridgedeck clearance, a secure galley, a well-protected helm, rounded joinerwork, etc,etc.

Brad
Don't get me wrong, the Antares is a very quality built boat, I spent considerable time evaluating it. The big things for me, the engine noise inside and I believe I could overload it pretty easily. The one I was on with 6 people had the aft step underwater.

This is of course, IMO! YMMV
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Old 18-02-2015, 19:10   #186
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Just one small point to quibble about regarding rounded corners as per Southern Star's post, I don't think having sharp corners on counter tops or tables is just a styling issue, or is "subjective". I think it is objectively true that it is a desirable feature from a safety aspect.

It is current vogue on many cats to have the rectangular "Modern" look, and on surfaces that are not likely to come into contact with bodies, like door corners etc., no problem. But really, has the cost cutting got to this point?

The point force applied to your ribs/groin, or head if you slip, and are thrown against such a sharp countertop or furniture are considerable. Real land-based condominiums don't move like boats can in a confused seaway. And cats particularly can have that "quick flick" motion under the wrong conditions.

At the Sydney boatshow, the salesman on such a cat pre-empted the issue with the observation that you can cut a slit in a tennis ball and stick it on the corner! I could not suppress a laugh at that.

I thought that was quite creative "selling" ie handle the valid objection before it arises
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Old 18-02-2015, 19:12   #187
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Sorry, let me clarify the first paragraph in that I meant it is objectively true from a safety perspective to have larger radius rounded corners on at risk corners.
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Old 19-02-2015, 04:56   #188
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
I would challenge any body who believes the galley down is safer than the u-shaped galley in the salon. Oh, and be sure to buy hearing protection for the chef, I measured >95db of engine/transmission noise in the galley of an Antares while motoring. Spending time doing that and you'll be saying "huh" for a day or two.
....

This is of course, IMO! YMMV
95dn of engine noise!!!?? According to tinternet sustained exposure to 90-95dn of noise can result in hearing loss... surely it can't be THAT noisy??
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Old 19-02-2015, 04:59   #189
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
At the Sydney boatshow, the salesman on such a cat pre-empted the issue with the observation that you can cut a slit in a tennis ball and stick it on the corner! I could not suppress a laugh at that.

I thought that was quite creative "selling" ie handle the valid objection before it arises
You wouldn't be the only one laughing.. that's like saying here's our $80k car... doesn't have an airbag though but we think a balloon on the steering wheel would do!
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Old 19-02-2015, 05:00   #190
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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95dn of engine noise!!!?? According to tinternet sustained exposure to 90-95dn of noise can result in hearing loss... surely it can't be THAT noisy??
Run the motor on the other hull if the galley is in use.
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Old 19-02-2015, 05:31   #191
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Run the motor on the other hull if the galley is in use.
Or become a performance geek and buy a boat that actually sails
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Old 19-02-2015, 07:50   #192
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Thanks Dave, I had read the Antares site about steering linkage and must admit it looked pretty bombproof to me.. Any other things I should look at/for on the Saba?
I recommend that for every boat you visit you ask to see the electrical and plumbing schematics and any other "as built" documentation that exists. Stuff like this is really important when you need to trouble shoot a problem and to understand how systems are arranged and interconnected.

Note the tankage volumes and arrangements, e.g., does each engine have it's own fuel tank? Can they be cross connected if desired? Does each engine have a water heater? Can you cross connect the house batts to the engine start batts if needed? How easy is it to check engine fluids? If there are two or more water tanks, are there multiple water pressure systems? If so, can they be cross connected? Where would you install a water maker if one doesn't already exist?

How is the main reefed? - do you need to go to the mast to do it? - single line or separate luff/leech lines or luff cringle? Can you furl the jib/genoa from either port or stbd tack? (Unbelievably, on some charter boats the winch set ups result in only being able to furl on one specific tack.)

This could go on and on and others nay have more suggestions....

Dave
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Old 19-02-2015, 08:02   #193
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I wonder which would flood quicker, losing a shaft in a shaft drive or losing both seals in a sailsdrive boat.
In boats I have been involved with the manufacturing over 25 years and 150 plus boats I have never had a saildrive seal fail. The manufacturer recommends replacing them every 10 years as a maintenance precaution but they are in such good shape at that point I know of no one that has, and most are using seals that are close to 20 years old.
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Old 19-02-2015, 09:01   #194
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Having been where you are several years ago, my advice FWIW is to take the advice proffered here with a balanced view. IMO this forum is skewed by those who often want to argue over small differences that are not critical to the average cruiser. Sailing performance is one of those issues.

In this vein the perjorative term of "condomaran" gives the impression as you indicate above that they will not sail unless favourable winds hit 20+ knots as you have indicated. This is simply rubbish.

If you really want to learn about sailing performance then boat shows are not the way to go. You need to actually sail boats to understand the relevant differences. A poor replacement is to go to marinas and talk to sailors the vast majority of whom will own production cats, and I have to say I have learned far more from interacting with these guys than I have from this forum.

The reason why the big 3 outsell other boats 10 to 1 is that they offer "reasonable" sailing performance, "reasonable price" and "good" comfort. By "reasonable" sailing performance I mean they sail well on all points of sail and in most conditions. You may have to motor at <5kn, but above that the choice is yours depending on how fast you want to go and where you want to be. There are many sailors who rarely use their motors on a production boat.

If you want a little more "sailing performance" re Catana or Outremer then you can pay for it. If you want a lot of "sailing performance" re Schionning or Tag then pay more again.

IMO the best sailing boat is one that you can actually afford and actually use. If you cannot afford afford a faster boat or your wife refuses to step on one for reasons of comfort factor then it follows that it is not the boat for you. To say that the boat is a poor second because it sails a knot or two slower is ridiculous. Whether you are sailing at 8kn or 10kn you are still sailing. I am sure Gordon on his Helia when he led the fleet across the Atlantic was not down on himself because he could have done it a few hours faster on a Catana. This all has to be put in a sense of perspective and frankly if you let your pespectives be skewed from the forum then it will not accord with the vast bulk of production cat owners that are very happy with the sailing performance of their boats, but do not have the time to post as they are actually out sailing, and I mean sailing, not motoring.

The best advice I obtained on this matter was from John Martin of the ICA who has been leading cruising rallies for 20 years. At that time I had an FP Orana. On asking whether I should upgrade to a faster boat he observed that the boat I had was faster than 95% of the boats out cruising, and if I was to participate in a rally I would have to spend most of my time slowing the boat down to stay with the others. Why then would I want a faster boat.

That's my 2c worth I guess. At the end of the day you will buy a boat that you and your wife are happy to live on and I will be almost certain sailing performance will not be a key issue as you come to realise that there are very little material differences in this regard in your affordability region.

You guys can now go back to arguing about how many angels you can fit on the top of a pin.
I've been following this thread closely since it started and this is one of the more balanced views I've read. Although it could be also because the Helia is on the top of my list and reading this makes me feel better about it
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Old 19-02-2015, 10:03   #195
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Run the motor on the other hull if the galley is in use.
Funny... but kind of avoiding the problem .. if it IS that noisy can't you add sound insulation?...
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