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Old 18-02-2015, 09:07   #166
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Dave(2Hulls),
I agree with your comments , as a 7 year Antares owner the comparisons I hear over and over again are between the Antares 44i and Oyster, Hylas and Amel as luxury world cruisers for a couple or family.
There is, in my mind no valid comparison with big charter cats like the Saba 50 and their cousins.
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Old 18-02-2015, 09:09   #167
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
No, I don't think anyone wants to change anyone's preferences. The rub comes when apparently naive people assume they will get best sailing performance and best comfort performance in the same charter oriented production boat. Should somebody here with a more informed and objective view attempt to educate them? I cringe at the discussions on another currently running thread concerning several overweight "showy" cats focusing on interior designs and amenities AND wondering how well they will sail? 20 knots was mentioned for a 50' cat with a 62' mast height. I would think we'd be doing them a favor to gently explain that their sailing performance expectation is a fantasy.

If you go back to the top of this thread, I and a couple others attempted to communicate that an Antares vs Saba comparison was not a valid comparison. More like a contrast. They do not have the same "performance" attributes. By "performance" here I mean doing well what they were designed to do. They were designed for two different functions. Sailing performance is an entirely different attribute.



Oh dear.

Well, on the other hand, perhaps many of them should be compared to hull speed limited cruisers....

Dave
So here is the OP's request:

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Originally Posted by Heath68 View Post
I'm soon to travel to France to look at a Saba 50. I'm also hoping to view an Antares 44i as a comparison. Has anyone got any opinions about the best? I know the Helia 44 is a more comparable size but I don't like it as much as the Saba.

I'm hoping to find a cat for the two of us to liveaboard for a few years and slowly circumnavigate. I've also looked at the Dean but can't see many reviews.
How did you conclude the OP is interested in performance?

My take on this thread is the main interest is the liveaboard amenities.
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Old 18-02-2015, 09:17   #168
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
So here is the OP's request:







How did you conclude the OP is interested in performance?



My take on this thread is the main interest is the liveaboard amenities.

Do you really think he is looking for the slowest boat he can find so he can slowly circumnavigate, or maybe the slow circumnavigation means he is going to take his time and visit countries for long periods. Of course with a faster boat he will have more time to visit those countries:-)
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Old 18-02-2015, 09:23   #169
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
How did you conclude the OP is interested in performance?
He is interested in "performance". He wants live-aboard performance to circumnavigate in cruiser fashion.

My comments about "sailing performance" were more related to the discussion on the other thread. My apologies for not being completely clear.

My main point was the premise of the initial question: compare the Antares to the Saba. Apples and oranges.

Dave
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Old 18-02-2015, 09:39   #170
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Do you really think he is looking for the slowest boat he can find so he can slowly circumnavigate, or maybe the slow circumnavigation means he is going to take his time and visit countries for long periods. Of course with a faster boat he will have more time to visit those countries:-)
No, I read his message as meaning he is more interested in amenities than performance. I give him credit for understanding the performance of liveaboard/cruising condomarans, whereas you seem to want to explain it to him even when he didn't ask.

I haven't seen enough performance difference between any of the production condomarans (Leopard, FP, Lagoon, Antares) to make any difference to a liveaboard/cruiser slowly circumnavigating. Trying to convince them to give up amenities and buy a performance oriented catamaran seems futile and only self-serving.

All IMO, or course!
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:01   #171
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

it always depend on what you want to do with the boat..you should always have the boat that is adapted to what you will be doing...

as i plan to live aboard ( but not at sea) mainly in the port except a few week ends and a month in the summer i'm more interested in a very roomy boat ( in my case a Lagoon 500 or salina 48) even though i fantasize on a performance boat ( TS 52.8)
if you want a very solid ( if a bit outdated) boat to live aboard while sailing around the world i'm sure the antares will do fine..
if you want to do it with a little less comfort and a bit faster either outremer, catana can supply a boat that will fit.
if you want to build it yourself shionning or lerouge ( or many other) can supply the plan...

to my mind but for a few exceptions there a no "bad" boats but there are boat that are not adapted to what you plan to do...know your program and buy the right boat...now to accept that you fantasize about a type of boat but realize that s not what you're needing...this can take a few years if not decades
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:08   #172
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by Catalysis View Post
Dave(2Hulls),
I agree with your comments , as a 7 year Antares owner the comparisons I hear over and over again are between the Antares 44i and Oyster, Hylas and Amel as luxury world cruisers for a couple or family.
There is, in my mind no valid comparison with big charter cats like the Saba 50 and their cousins.
Paul



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I definitely understand yours a 2hulls point. Like he said I am naively trying to ascertain what options I have if an Antares isn't available. My initial thoughts were to a Saba as I didn't like the layout of the Helia. Answers posted here suggest that this is not the way to go either which was why I asked if anyone could give me clues as to what to look out for. I've made a note of them for my FP and Nautitech visit in 2 weeks.

Many of the posts have either challenged my naive starting point or have cemented them. So the questions I have sometimes added surround:
Shorthandling of cats (only 2-3 of us aboard)
Position of helm (I'm erring towards Bulkhead as Afthelms often have no protection and there aren't many midships helms I've seen..) .. if you're wondering about the GB design forget that I may get a mast on my head and I won't have a boat big enough to worry about a flybridge..
Decent Galley storage (Prefer galley up but many of the galley ups seem to be sparse on cupboard and worktop space in these size cats)
Saildrives - prefer not if I can.
Bridgedeck - leave that to the designer but would be wary of anything too low.
Would like aircon, washing machine, electric heads and don't like some cat designs that suggest that climbing 5 steps to get up to a bed is acceptable.
The only thing I would say is that your comparisons are monohulls and are no way on my agenda... I will as they say, soldier on in my search for my ideal.
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:15   #173
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
He is interested in "performance". He wants live-aboard performance to circumnavigate in cruiser fashion.

My comments about "sailing performance" were more related to the discussion on the other thread. My apologies for not being completely clear.

My main point was the premise of the initial question: compare the Antares to the Saba. Apples and oranges.

Dave
Dave I feel like you know me better than the Mrs ... I want a comfortable liveaboard that "sails" .. not a condomaran whose engines are in constant use. My ambition to circumnavigate is not about how quickly I get round (far from it, I want to visit lots of places/port/marina's etc as I go) but that if I want to sail 20 miles down the coast to the next marina I haven't got to wait until favourable winds hit 20+ knots.. I'd like more option than that.

We are selling our house to do this and have recently worked out our budget for purchase after paying of mortgages etc and this has also put some dream machines outside our radar.
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:24   #174
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
I haven't seen enough performance difference between any of the production condomarans (Leopard, FP, Lagoon, Antares) to make any difference to a liveaboard/cruiser slowly circumnavigating.
There's that pesky "performance" word again. Perhaps we should always preface it with "sailing" if we mean "sailing performance" and/or use another term like "suitability" when referring to other "performance" attributes like long term cruising or voyaging vs a week long party.

Dave
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Old 18-02-2015, 10:34   #175
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by Heath68 View Post
I want a comfortable liveaboard that "sails" .. not a condomaran whose engines are in constant use. My ambition to circumnavigate is not about how quickly I get round (far from it, I want to visit lots of places/port/marina's etc as I go) but that if I want to sail 20 miles down the coast to the next marina I haven't got to wait until favourable winds hit 20+ knots.. I'd like more option than that.
You'll get there, Heath, and you will make compromises. Only you and the Admiral - mostly her - will or should be deciding on the compromises. The best anyone here or else where can do for you is help you ID the compromises.

Dave
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Old 18-02-2015, 11:48   #176
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Quote:
Dave Dave I feel like you know me better than the Mrs ... I want a comfortable liveaboard that "sails" .. not a condomaran whose engines are in constant use. My ambition to circumnavigate is not about how quickly I get round (far from it, I want to visit lots of places/port/marina's etc as I go) but that if I want to sail 20 miles down the coast to the next marina I haven't got to wait until favourable winds hit 20+ knots.. I'd like more option than that.

We are selling our house to do this and have recently worked out our budget for purchase after paying of mortgages etc and this has also put some dream machines outside our radar.
Having been where you are several years ago, my advice FWIW is to take the advice proffered here with a balanced view. IMO this forum is skewed by those who often want to argue over small differences that are not critical to the average cruiser. Sailing performance is one of those issues.

In this vein the perjorative term of "condomaran" gives the impression as you indicate above that they will not sail unless favourable winds hit 20+ knots as you have indicated. This is simply rubbish.

If you really want to learn about sailing performance then boat shows are not the way to go. You need to actually sail boats to understand the relevant differences. A poor replacement is to go to marinas and talk to sailors the vast majority of whom will own production cats, and I have to say I have learned far more from interacting with these guys than I have from this forum.

The reason why the big 3 outsell other boats 10 to 1 is that they offer "reasonable" sailing performance, "reasonable price" and "good" comfort. By "reasonable" sailing performance I mean they sail well on all points of sail and in most conditions. You may have to motor at <5kn, but above that the choice is yours depending on how fast you want to go and where you want to be. There are many sailors who rarely use their motors on a production boat.

If you want a little more "sailing performance" re Catana or Outremer then you can pay for it. If you want a lot of "sailing performance" re Schionning or Tag then pay more again.

IMO the best sailing boat is one that you can actually afford and actually use. If you cannot afford afford a faster boat or your wife refuses to step on one for reasons of comfort factor then it follows that it is not the boat for you. To say that the boat is a poor second because it sails a knot or two slower is ridiculous. Whether you are sailing at 8kn or 10kn you are still sailing. I am sure Gordon on his Helia when he led the fleet across the Atlantic was not down on himself because he could have done it a few hours faster on a Catana. This all has to be put in a sense of perspective and frankly if you let your pespectives be skewed from the forum then it will not accord with the vast bulk of production cat owners that are very happy with the sailing performance of their boats, but do not have the time to post as they are actually out sailing, and I mean sailing, not motoring.

The best advice I obtained on this matter was from John Martin of the ICA who has been leading cruising rallies for 20 years. At that time I had an FP Orana. On asking whether I should upgrade to a faster boat he observed that the boat I had was faster than 95% of the boats out cruising, and if I was to participate in a rally I would have to spend most of my time slowing the boat down to stay with the others. Why then would I want a faster boat.

That's my 2c worth I guess. At the end of the day you will buy a boat that you and your wife are happy to live on and I will be almost certain sailing performance will not be a key issue as you come to realise that there are very little material differences in this regard in your affordability region.

You guys can now go back to arguing about how many angels you can fit on the top of a pin.
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Old 18-02-2015, 11:59   #177
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by Heath68 View Post
Dave I feel like you know me better than the Mrs ... I want a comfortable liveaboard that "sails" .. not a condomaran whose engines are in constant use. My ambition to circumnavigate is not about how quickly I get round (far from it, I want to visit lots of places/port/marina's etc as I go) but that if I want to sail 20 miles down the coast to the next marina I haven't got to wait until favourable winds hit 20+ knots.. I'd like more option than that.

We are selling our house to do this and have recently worked out our budget for purchase after paying of mortgages etc and this has also put some dream machines outside our radar.
It takes more power to push a 20ton boat thru the water than a 10ton boat. Hence, you equip a 20ton with more power generation, i.e., bigger/taller sails to move it at the same speed as a 10ton boat. Don't let the performance boat geeks scare you into thinking condomarans don't sail, yes they do. In fact, my experience has been that most are over-powered until you get down under 10-12kts of wind. To prove this, when you reef sails at suggested wind speeds, the boat does not slow down, hence it must have been over powered without the reefs. So, in light winds (<12kts), equip your condomaran with a large light wind sail (ex. 1500+sq ft of parasailor or asymmetric spi).

The performance geeks are simply stating that for the same size (LOA) boat, the lighter one will sail faster with less sail area. Hull shape contributes to the equation, but weight is the biggest contributing factor (which drives hull shape for a given length).

I've had my boat to 13+kts surfing, so what? The harder you push a boat, the more stress on everything rigging. I'd much rather sail in 12-15kts than 20kts.

I'll state it again, take a look at The Larrikin, a 44' Helia that crossed the line first in the Atlantic Odyssey rally in a field of 33 boats. Notice the performance geeks have no explanation about how that happened. I'm not stating the Helia is a performance boat, but it certain can hold it's own when it comes to sailing across the Atlantic.

Point: condomarans do/can sail. It'll take you just as far and in more comfort than a performance boat that have less amenities.
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Old 18-02-2015, 12:27   #178
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
It takes more power to push a 20ton boat thru the water than a 10ton boat. Hence, you equip a 20ton with more power generation, i.e., bigger/taller sails to move it at the same speed as a 10ton boat. Don't let the performance boat geeks scare you into thinking condomarans don't sail, yes they do. In fact, my experience has been that most are over-powered until you get down under 10-12kts of wind. To prove this, when you reef sails at suggested wind speeds, the boat does not slow down, hence it must have been over powered without the reefs. So, in light winds (<12kts), equip your condomaran with a large light wind sail (ex. 1500+sq ft of parasailor or asymmetric spi).



The performance geeks are simply stating that for the same size (LOA) boat, the lighter one will sail faster with less sail area. Hull shape contributes to the equation, but weight is the biggest contributing factor (which drives hull shape for a given length).



I've had my boat to 13+kts surfing, so what? The harder you push a boat, the more stress on everything rigging. I'd much rather sail in 12-15kts than 20kts.



I'll state it again, take a look at The Larrikin, a 44' Helia that crossed the line first in the Atlantic Odyssey rally in a field of 33 boats. Notice the performance geeks have no explanation about how that happened. I'm not stating the Helia is a performance boat, but it certain can hold it's own when it comes to sailing across the Atlantic.



Point: condomarans do/can sail. It'll take you just as far and in more comfort than a performance boat that have less amenities.

From a performance geek, yes you may be able to get a 20 ton boat to sail as fast as a 10 ton boat but the loads on that 20 ton boat will be astronomical compared to the 10 ton boat. The sails would have to huge, the rigging way larger, the sheets and winches way bigger, oops now our 20 ton boat weighs 21.5 tons and we need bigger sails to push it as fast as the 10 ton boat.
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Old 18-02-2015, 13:10   #179
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

It's more than just top speed for sailing enthusiasts (aka performance geeks). It's the joy of handling a fine sailing craft. This usually means the boat was intended to be a sailing machine first and a living machine second. For people who didn't grow up sailing dinghies and beach cats, this subtlety may be meaningless if even understood. But for those of us with the "curse" it matters.

My standard reply to wanna be cruisers who ask what boat they should get is, "Do you want a sailing machine you can live on, or a boat you can live on that also sails?" They usually want it all which brings out the ditty we've all repeated: of high sailing performance, high creature comforts, and low price, you can have only two of the three. Choose two. This is when the compromises begin and the potential buyer has to set his/her priorities - mostly hers.

Usually the real determinate is budget and further compromises progress from there. There is no right answer to tell somebody because only they can know it. But they ought to be armed with as much knowledge as they can swallow and understand. A forum like this may be the most imperfect place they can get it due to the limits of this form of communication.

Dave
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Old 18-02-2015, 13:14   #180
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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I'll state it again, take a look at The Larrikin, a 44' Helia that crossed the line first in the Atlantic Odyssey rally in a field of 33 boats. Notice the performance geeks have no explanation about how that happened. I'm not stating the Helia is a performance boat, but it certain can hold it's own when it comes to sailing across the Atlantic.

Point: condomarans do/can sail. It'll take you just as far and in more comfort than a performance boat that have less amenities.
Well whilst FP are expecting me to be mainly interested in the Saba, I will certainly look again at the Helia... I understand compromise (I have a partner.. who doesn't!!) and I know that a cat will be better for me for many reasons.. its just finding one that ticks all the "must haves" and most of the "should haves" and hopefully avoids the "prefer nots". I'll get there.. and quite honestly.. I CAN'T WAIT. .. and to that end am hoping to charter a couple of times this year and may try and join one of those forums that allow you to advertise your services as crew so I can get more experience... that may not be easy in the UK with a cat but I'm hoping.
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