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Old 17-02-2015, 15:55   #151
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by ruslan124 View Post
Just returned from the Miami show and personally was not impressed by the Antares from a space and cosmetic perspective. The galley down for me was an issue and compared to other boats, the Antares seemed dark and a little cramped. The cockpit in particular was cluttered and not impressive.

I should qualify that since this was a show, there was a lot of traffic that might have added to the perspective that it was cramped.

Finally, the interior styling made it feel like an old boat. Lots of real wood and curves. If you like contemporary then the styling might not appeal.

Since the OP was comparing to the SABA 50, it was night and day. Loved the light and space on the SABA but it is a much bigger cat and that should be expected. Excellent styling and use of space.

For me it was a tie between SABA and Dean 5000 (Xquisite X5 for new boats) for space, styling and layout.
Have to agree the Antares whilst a very well finished vessel is nowdays a dated and old design and a small 44 ft vessel compared with its competitors.

Looking for a big 46ft with bulletproof rig, the best through ventilation (reducing need for a/c) and a 6mx4m saloon with a similar saloon design to the St Francis50 but a lot more space and a 12.5:1 DWL hull. Worth a consideration. Designs - FreeFlow 46

Has most of the best features of the Antares in a modern design.
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Old 17-02-2015, 16:00   #152
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Have to agree the Antares whilst a very well finished vessel is nowdays a dated and old design and a small 44 ft vessel compared with its competitors.

Looking for a big 46ft with bulletproof rig, the best through ventilation (reducing need for a/c) and a 6mx4m saloon with a similar saloon design to the St Francis50 but a lot more space and a 12.5:1 DWL hull. Worth a consideration. Designs - FreeFlow 46

Has most of the best features of the Antares in a modern design.
The Leopard 44 and 48 have that front saloon door which should privileged great through ventilation. Some people have Conceruns over stability with the front seating area but there seems to be no evidence to support that. I like the look both internal and external of the Leopard and the 48 is defiantly of interest. I liked how well they used the space.
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Old 17-02-2015, 19:15   #153
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

For just once I would like to see someone comment on a multihull on the merits of it actually being a sailboat rather than a waterfront condo.
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Old 17-02-2015, 19:27   #154
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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For just once I would like to see someone comment on a multihull on the merits of it actually being a sailboat rather than a waterfront condo.


I know it's work to get the data but wouldn't polars be nice to get? But as long as people just go on the boats and admire the pretty stuff, the manufacturers will focus on looks 'n goodies.

Why doesn't someone here (experienced) publish a "How to Buy a Cruising Catamaran" little booklet with all the important stuff relating to safety, quality of materials, construction issues, light air sailing performance etc. etc. and make it a sticky?
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Old 17-02-2015, 19:53   #155
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
For just once I would like to see someone comment on a multihull on the merits of it actually being a sailboat rather than a waterfront condo.
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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post


I know it's work to get the data but wouldn't polars be nice to get? But as long as people just go on the boats and admire the pretty stuff, the manufacturers will focus on looks 'n goodies.

Why doesn't someone here (experienced) publish a "How to Buy a Cruising Catamaran" little booklet with all the important stuff relating to safety, quality of materials, construction issues, light air sailing performance etc. etc. and make it a sticky?
You read a thread about condomarans and complain about the topics discussed?

Go back to GUNBOAT Dismasting
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Old 17-02-2015, 20:12   #156
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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You read a thread about condomarans and complain about the topics discussed?

Go back to GUNBOAT Dismasting
The Antares I would not classify as a condomaran, it is designed as a purpose built cruiser. You do know the difference, don't you? Perhaps not.

Do you understand how a designer gets his hull lines & what he is trying to achieve for the purpose of the boat? In case not, a designer who is designing for the charter market, the condomarans as you put it, is primarily concerned with achieving adequate payload and accommodation space. That's why the hulls are so fat. What suffers is sailing performance, particularly light air performance, via more wetted surface, hull drag from fat ends, and overall boat weight. No problem for charterers, they just burn some more diesel when the winds is light.

Someone who wants a boat more suited to passagemaking and inevitably running into foul weather, needs a different boat IMHO.

And all I was saying is that there are some really experienced people here who do understand the difference & could put down a guideline for how to get the right boat for the job, instead of just looking at charter focused designs by the main manufacturers. It could be a collaborative effort.
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Old 17-02-2015, 20:56   #157
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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The Antares I would not classify as a condomaran, it is designed as a purpose built cruiser. You do know the difference, don't you? Perhaps not.
Yep, I think I have a handle on the hull shape and wetted surface thing. My observation - The Antares was designed pre-condomaran explosion, I doubt sailing performance was the main focus. Narrow hulls (or better - pre-widened hulls) was design du jour for it's time period. Antares has no choice but to chase the live-aboard/cruiser market because it would never sell to the current charter market. No disrespect, just facts as I see them.

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Do you understand how a designer gets his hull lines & what he is trying to achieve for the purpose of the boat? In case not, a designer who is designing for the charter market, the condomarans as you put it, is primarily concerned with achieving adequate payload and accommodation space. That's why the hulls are so fat. What suffers is sailing performance, particularly light air performance, via more wetted surface, hull drag from fat ends, and overall boat weight. No problem for charterers, they just burn some more diesel when the winds is light.

Someone who wants a boat more suited to passagemaking and inevitably running into foul weather, needs a different boat IMHO.
Who's definition of passagemaking? Did you see that a Helia crossed the finish line first on the recent Atlantic Odyssey in a fleet of 33 boats? Does this not meet your opinion of passagemaking?

And you actually believe you can change the minds of those in love with current charter-oriented production boats to agree with your desires? Why would they? And why would you want to?

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And all I was saying is that there are some really experienced people here who do understand the difference & could put down a guideline for how to get the right boat for the job, instead of just looking at charter focused designs by the main manufacturers. It could be a collaborative effort.
Obviously you rank performance higher than amenities. Nothing wrong with that, until you attempt to force your desires on others. I think it's quite obvious what a large portion of the market wants, boat shows and sales are the truth.

The bottom line is all the condomarans will sail at hull speed in moderate wind on all points of sail. As you state, they'll either go slower in light winds, or burn diesel. All bets are off for all kinds of boats in 70kts of wind as proven by the recent 'performance cat' problems (run away from bad weather??).

I say let those interested in amenities chat away....no need to change the topic. If you want a performance thread, go for it!
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Old 17-02-2015, 20:58   #158
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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You read a thread about condomarans and complain about the topics discussed?

Go back to GUNBOAT Dismasting
+1

What cracks me up is the guys who constantly focus on performance and then never actually go anywhere with their performance boats, if they even have one. Too many reliving their old Hobie days.

One of the big reasons many of us focus on the "condomarans" is that we are married and want to stay that way.
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Old 17-02-2015, 21:09   #159
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Going to New Cal / Vanuatu in May and then back to Whitsundays. Total passage time 12 days hopefully, in a total of 150 days. Rest of time on pick or doing 20-30nm per day. In a performance boat over 800nm to New Cal I might save a day, rest of time might save a few minutes point to point over 20nm, but I am living on that boat 150 days. Living accommodation has to be key.

Actually, for day sailing rather than passage making there is a better argument. On Australian coast several anchorages are 100-120nm apart, so on a normal cat cannot do it in daylight. Tony Longhurst maintains he built Kato just so he could do these sort of runs in the daylight. From my point of view a bit of night sailing is not a big problem, and the extra money does not justify.
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Old 17-02-2015, 21:22   #160
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Going to New Cal / Vanuatu in May and then back to Whitsundays. Total passage time 12 days hopefully, in a total of 150 days. Rest of time on pick or doing 20-30nm per day. In a performance boat over 800nm to New Cal I might save a day, rest of time might save a few minutes point to point over 20nm, but I am living on that boat 150 days. Living accommodation has to be key.

Actually, for day sailing rather than passage making there is a better argument. On Australian coast several anchorages are 100-120nm apart, so on a normal cat cannot do it in daylight. Tony Longhurst maintains he built Kato just so he could do these sort of runs in the daylight. From my point of view a bit of night sailing is not a big problem, and the extra money does not justify.
Those not from Australia would not know the type of vessel Kato is? I know it is a schonning just can't recall the model. Gforce 1800?
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Old 17-02-2015, 21:27   #161
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Yes, Schionning GForce 1800.
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Old 17-02-2015, 21:31   #162
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Actually, I err, it was another GForce 1800 owner that made the statement about passages in daylight. I think Tony just wanted to get the fastest cruising boat he could build. Although I am told he has a 40' all carbon cat that goes faster now.
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Old 17-02-2015, 21:32   #163
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

He could have had Kato built all carbon if he wanted!

Very nice, a dream boat. I bet that it would be a very comfortable, safe cruising design. Not to mention QUICK!
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Old 18-02-2015, 05:26   #164
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

Instead of boat brokers, maybe real estate agents should be the ones showing the new "fad" charter cats :-)
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Old 18-02-2015, 08:31   #165
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Re: Saba 50 vs Antares

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
And you actually believe you can change the minds of those in love with current charter-oriented production boats to agree with your desires? Why would they? And why would you want to?
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I say let those interested in amenities chat away....no need to change the topic. If you want a performance thread, go for it!
No, I don't think anyone wants to change anyone's preferences. The rub comes when apparently naive people assume they will get best sailing performance and best comfort performance in the same charter oriented production boat. Should somebody here with a more informed and objective view attempt to educate them? I cringe at the discussions on another currently running thread concerning several overweight "showy" cats focusing on interior designs and amenities AND wondering how well they will sail? 20 knots was mentioned for a 50' cat with a 62' mast height. I would think we'd be doing them a favor to gently explain that their sailing performance expectation is a fantasy.

If you go back to the top of this thread, I and a couple others attempted to communicate that an Antares vs Saba comparison was not a valid comparison. More like a contrast. They do not have the same "performance" attributes. By "performance" here I mean doing well what they were designed to do. They were designed for two different functions. Sailing performance is an entirely different attribute.

Quote:
The bottom line is all the condomarans will sail at hull speed in moderate wind on all points of sail.
Oh dear.

Well, on the other hand, perhaps many of them should be compared to hull speed limited cruisers....

Dave
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