S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

I understand that many men have issues with other men who have bigger things.

Now we could also go into the whole question of why the guys with the smaller thing need to go on about the speed of their smaller thing. Trying to convince everyone that they are more virile (better performer) than the sailors with the much bigger thing. While the sailors with the much bigger thing don't feel the need to have to prove anything and just sit back and enjoy basking in the sun stress free as they sail across the deep blue.

Just saying.

Very insightful and true. The size thing is not purely the province of males however, females regularly undergo much pain and expense to get a pair of things "enhanced".

When it comes to boats, I must agree. We regularly talk with owners of "performance" sailing boats. Whilst he is telling me of great feats of speed, she is telling my wife about the lack of space and comfort.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

your experience seem in line with mine. Depending on sea state, how rolly it is, upwind, monos can do up to 50% more VMG. On conditions you describe would be your 6 kn VMG vs 4 kn VMG. This difference decreases with improved sea state and can achieve some surprising results.

In saying that, I doubt cat was hand steered unlike your boat. Hand steering can add around 1 kn speed to cat upwind at the same angle. But generally, people on cruising cats dont bother or even do not know how to.

Nice to hear that at least some cats and monohull owners there is an agreement. My boat is very good upwind (and that was one of the reasons why I bought it), the difference would be smaller to a main market cruiser like a Beneteau or a Jeanneau.

Anyway many monohull sailors, not to say most, just motor upwind and for those a cat would be a better choice in what regards performance, comparing main market cats and main market monohulls.

Regarding the cat, like monohulls, they go most of the time motoring upwind and the fact that one went upwind in a nasty sea says something about the way it was sailed.

As I said when I passed it I was just some few meters away and i can tell you that the cat was not only being hand steered as the sails were being fine tuned to take all the speed they could offer. It was clear that at that moment both boats were racing and nobody wanted to be left behind.

Also I was impressed with the crew: many times when I clear overtake by a large margin a boat upwind they just take out the front sail and start motorsailing. Not those guys.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by GoingWalkabout

I don't mean to be rude. Seriously. But is there a little bit of a Freudian big width multi-hull envy going on by the mono hull guys. Just thinking that the strong emotional response by mono people is revealing they are perhaps suffering at a subconscious level, a very deep seated big thing envy.

I understand that many men have issues with other men who have bigger things.

Now we could also go into the whole question of why the guys with the smaller thing need to go on about the speed of their smaller thing. Trying to convince everyone that they are more virile (better performer) than the sailors with the much bigger thing. While the sailors with the much bigger thing don't feel the need to have to prove anything and just sit back and enjoy basking in the sun stress free as they sail across the deep blue.

Just saying.

But you are being rude. I don't understand why a simple post with more information about comparative boat performance on real circumstances on a thread that is most about performance between a cat and a monohull (as on the first initial post) as anything to do with being more virile.

The part regarding a smaller monohull going faster than a bigger monohull has to do with another discussion on another thread about the relevance of LWL as the major factor for speed. Again it is more of s technical discussion having nothing to do with virility.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Polux

But you are being rude. I don't understand why a simple post with more information about comparative boat performance on real circumstances on a thread that is most about performance between a cat and a monohull (as on the first initial post) as anything to do with being more virile.

The part regarding a smaller monohull going faster than a bigger monohull has to do with another discussion on another thread about the relevance of LWL as the major factor for speed. Again it is more of s technical discussion having nothing to do with virility.

Naah mate.. its just the usual female thing.. confusing quantity with quality..

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Polux

Nice to hear that at least some cats and monohull owners there is an agreement. My boat is very good upwind (and that was one of the reasons why I bought it), the difference would be smaller to a main market cruiser like a Beneteau or a Jeanneau.

Anyway many monohull sailors, not to say most, just motor upwind and for those a cat would be a better choice in what regards performance, comparing main market cats and main market monohulls.

Regarding the cat, like monohulls, they go most of the time motoring upwind and the fact that one went upwind in a nasty sea says something about the way it was sailed.

As I said when I passed it I was just some few meters away and i can tell you that the cat was not only being hand steered as the sails were being fine tuned to take all the speed they could offer. It was clear that at that moment both boats were racing and nobody wanted to be left behind.

Also I was impressed with the crew: many times when I clear overtake by a large margin a boat upwind they just take out the front sail and start motorsailing. Not those guys.

crew seem to be experienced and motivated so you got good insight in L400 performance in given conditions.

My thinking, when deciding mono/cat, is that upwind performance in real life is least important as usually one looks for following seas when passaging. In situations when upwind performance becomes critical, like making 200 miles in a day to run from weather, 1 or 2 engines should cover the deficit. Now, I have seen monos do the same & some fancy, performance designed, lagoon circling, cats as well.

So this performance talk is mainly just talk.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

crew seem to be experienced and motivated so you got good insight in L400 performance in given conditions.

My thinking, when deciding mono/cat, is that upwind performance in real life is least important as usually one looks for following seas when passaging. In situations when upwind performance becomes critical, like making 200 miles in a day to run from weather, 1 or 2 engines should cover the deficit. Now, I have seen monos do the same & some fancy, performance designed, lagoon circling, cats as well.

So this performance talk is mainly just talk.

Your opinion. And that's fine.

But some people actually want a boat that sails. And sails to windward.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Your opinion. And that's fine.

But some people actually want a boat that sails. And sails to windward.

fine with me. Hope will not happen to you: one day in 25 kn wind you will see lagoon circling your boat.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Polux

As I said when I passed it I was just some few meters away and i can tell you that the cat was not only being hand steered as the sails were being fine tuned to take all the speed they could offer. It was clear that at that moment both boats were racing and nobody wanted to be left behind..

I'm impressed, you can tell sail trim is correct without even being on the boat, you sir are a much better sailor than me.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

fine with me. Hope will not happen to you: one day in 25 kn wind you will see lagoon circling your boat.

It's possible. If we're anchored.

I don't understand a couple of things. Why does my comment about sailing rings round Lagoons bother you? It's a simple statement of fact. Every boat is a compromise.

Our boat is designed to sail to windward. To do this we have less accommodation than a similar length production boat. It's a choice of compromise we made. You chose differently. Your choice results in you having more space, less sailing performance.

These are simply facts. They're not insults.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Factor

I'm impressed, you can tell sail trim is correct without even being on the boat, you sir are a much better sailor than me.

Well yes, many mono sailors know all about cat's, enough to pass on this vast knowledge in the multihull forum, all without ever having been on one.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Factor

I'm impressed, you can tell sail trim is correct without even being on the boat, you sir are a much better sailor than me.

Yep, and he's an expert judge of a cat's sail trim, even though he's never sailed one.

[Andrew Grace]

good overview below of actual results sailing upwind on a well setup cat, pretty self explanatory overview on real angles and speeds when going upwind.

Upwind Catamaran Sailing onboard ROAM — Sail Surf ROAM

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I don't understand a couple of things. Why does my comment about sailing rings round Lagoons bother you?

Perhaps the comment was intended to bother? Otherwise, different wording would have been used.

Our Lagoon frequently sails faster than many other catamarans. Yes, sail. Despite your frequent assertions on this forum that Lagoons can't actually sail, we often sail past other cats, such as the smaller Seawind models. They go slower because they are shorter, being conservatively sailed and frequently overloaded as cruisers. If I had the time and weird obsession, we could conceivably sail around them.

Unless I purposely intended to niggle Seawind owners, I wouldn't dream of posting a statement that I regularly "sail rings around Seawinds". Particularly when the relative perormance of my brand and model is not even being discussed.

Of course, many or even most catamarans sail faster than Lagoons. No Lagoon owner would deny this. They make no pretensions of being "performance cats" or even "cruiser racers". Pollux's mono seriously outperformed the Lagoon 400 to windward. He described the difference in performance without the put downs of "can't sail" or "we sailed rings around".

You don't understand? I wonder.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Andrew Grace

good overview below of actual results sailing upwind on a well setup cat, pretty self explanatory overview on real angles and speeds when going upwind.

Upwind Catamaran Sailing onboard ROAM — Sail Surf ROAM

Interesting and informative post. Thanks!

Jim

[downunder]

Originally Posted by Andrew Grace

good overview below of actual results sailing upwind on a well setup cat, pretty self explanatory overview on real angles and speeds when going upwind.

Upwind Catamaran Sailing onboard ROAM — Sail Surf ROAM

I seriously doubt Polux would sail rings around ROAM.