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Old 07-10-2016, 06:21   #301
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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So there's no substitute for ability to sail upwind, in a sailing boat.
Brothers & Sisters - can I get an Amen
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Old 07-10-2016, 08:12   #302
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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....

In my opinion, most cats indeed can't sail to windward, but most cruising monos can't, either. ...
I disagree on both counts. The conditions I was describing, with 2/3 meters waves with a very short period and 18k frontal wind were more demanding conditions than usual, but even so that Lagoon 400 could and sailed upwind and I am sure that almost all main market monohulls of that size (40ft) would not have a problem to sail upwind, probably a bit faster than the Lagoon (VMG).

The fact is that most monohulls sailors and most cat sailors chose not to sail upwind on those conditions with that type of sea. Most try to avoid them at all and the ones that are caught by them and have no choice, generally motor or motorsailing, even if the speed is low. But that is another story and does not mean they could not go upwind sailing, just that they chose not.
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Old 07-10-2016, 08:18   #303
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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I disagree on both counts. The conditions I was describing, with 2/3 meters waves with a very short period and 18k frontal wind were more demanding conditions than usual, but even so that Lagoon 400 could and sailed upwind and I am sure that almost all main market monohulls of that size (40ft) would not have a problem to sail upwind, probably a bit faster than the Lagoon (VMG).

The fact is that most monohulls sailors and most cat sailors chose not to sail upwind on those conditions with that type of sea. Most try to avoid them at all and the ones that are caught by them and have no choice, generally motor or motorsailing, even if the speed is low. But that is another story and does not mean they could not go upwind sailing, just that they chose not.
It depends on how you define "sail upwind".

If you are happy with 2 or 3 knots VMG to windward, then what you say is true.

If you expect to make more than 100 miles a day to windward -- then no! 2 or 3 knots VMG to windward is not really satisfactory, if you need to get 1000 miles upwind somewhere.
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Old 07-10-2016, 11:18   #304
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

I just want to add my $.02 to this discussion -- with regard to the comments of the interviewee regarding "sailing to the gusts":


I agree multis should be reefed to the gusts (not average winds) but I think there is a bit of "bluster" in his claim that he does it for comfort and to minimize equipment wear, minimizing safety as being a non-issue. That's like saying "I don't drive my car at excessive speed in hairpin turns because I'm concerned about tire wear."
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Old 07-10-2016, 12:18   #305
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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It depends on how you define "sail upwind".

If you are happy with 2 or 3 knots VMG to windward, then what you say is true.

If you expect to make more than 100 miles a day to windward -- then no! 2 or 3 knots VMG to windward is not really satisfactory, if you need to get 1000 miles upwind somewhere.
If you are saying that some boats sail much better upwind then others, well, then I agree, but that is obvious. The real problem to sailing upwind happens not on the conditions most sailors, namely coastal sailors (that are the huge majority) sail. On perfect sailing conditions till medium conditions almost all modern designed boats, including monohulls can sail well upwind.

I agree with you in what regards very difficult conditions, with a difficult sea and lots of wind. On those conditions I agree with you. It is all a question of power, not different with a motor boat on those conditions. You just need lots of power to go against the waves and make way, with a motorboat or a sailboat.

Normally main market sailboats (at least relatively small ones) cannot generate that kind of power, meaning they have not the stiffness, or stability that allows generating that power : they just heel and make very little way.That depends also on the size of the boat, all things being the same, a bigger boat can generate more power, proportionally to the size of the waves and have the energy needed to overcome them without losing too much speed.
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Old 07-10-2016, 13:43   #306
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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That's very good performance indeed.

I'm a little puzzled how he can tack in 100 degrees over ground, if he's sailing so large at 38 degrees AWA, but I guess those daggerboards might be extremely efficient plus lots of speed? 90% of TWS is impressive.


Actually those numbers don't really add up. If he was sailing at 38 AWA, in 13 kts TWS at 10 knots boatspeed, he'd be tacking through > 130 degrees.
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Old 07-10-2016, 19:27   #307
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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SO explain how you figure an Oram 44C has a higher COG than a Lagoon 40? Because it baffles me.
guesstimates, as I do not know your boat but as you have more sails from what i remember you were saying, expect your standing rigging to be at least same weight as L 400.

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Old 07-10-2016, 21:17   #308
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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guesstimates, as I do not know your boat but as you have more sails from what i remember you were saying, expect your standing rigging to be at least same weight as L 400.

gtg
Guess again. Those numbers are so far out it's laughable! For the COG of a rig to be 11 metres high, the rig would have to be what, 25 metres tall? (Most of the heavy stuff, like the boom and the bulk of the sail area is down low, even the stays don't go all the way to the top.)


Our mast is 16 metres tall. The COG of our rig is probably something less than 7 m up. Our rig would also be considerably lighter. A heavier boat puts much greater loads on the rig, so everything needs to be bigger/heavier.
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Old 09-10-2016, 04:06   #309
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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good overview below of actual results sailing upwind on a well setup cat, pretty self explanatory overview on real angles and speeds when going upwind.

Upwind Catamaran Sailing onboard ROAM — Sail Surf ROAM
An interesting and thorough account. The standout thing and disappointment for me is he feels he needs to limit speed to only 7kt offshore for comfort reasons. Is that a surprise for performance cat owners?

Not much different from a big slow heavy mono.
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Old 09-10-2016, 04:40   #310
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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An interesting and thorough account. The standout thing and disappointment for me is he feels he needs to limit speed to only 7kt offshore for comfort reasons. Is that a surprise for performance cat owners?

Not much different from a big slow heavy mono.
That's when he is beating hard to weather in heavy conditions. No surprise to me (but mine isn't a real performance cat). As he says, once you get above that, it gets uncomfortable launching our of the back of waves and slamming into the troughs.
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Old 09-10-2016, 05:08   #311
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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That's when he is beating hard to weather in heavy conditions. No surprise to me (but mine isn't a real performance cat). As he says, once you get above that, it gets uncomfortable launching our of the back of waves and slamming into the troughs.
Well, I can report that in our not so heavy, not so slow mono, we too limit our speed to windward in heavy conditions, or bear off a bit, and for the same reasons: launching off wave tops and crashing into the troughs. Hard on boats and hard on crews.

Back in April we had a fairly hard passage up the west coast of Tasmania. There were residual seas and swells from the preceding gale and 25 knots NW wind with frequent 40 knot squalls. With such wind speeds we can easily get up to hull speed, but the toll in gear and personal angst is way too high. We ran two reefs in teh main and the Solent jib (rolled away in the squalls), maintained 6-7 knots and it was still kinda uncomfortable, but nothing broke and we did the 125 or so miles in around 20 hours. It was pretty hard on the wind (35+/- deg AWA) and not a fun trip. I submit that it would have been uncomfortable in most any smaller yacht,no matter the number of hulls!

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Old 09-10-2016, 05:12   #312
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

Each vessel, mono or multi, needs to be sailed according to prevailing conditions and comfort for the boat and crew.

7 knots seems about right for rough conditions in the sea state. No point in getting there at 10 knots if you have to replace all the crockery and clean the vomit..
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Old 09-10-2016, 05:43   #313
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

We have found that 6-7 knots is a comfortable passage speed when sailing to windward in bad weather on our Lagoon 450, especially at night. We are cruisers, not racers. Longevity of boat/equipment and comfort of crew (wife and I) are more important to us than speed.
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Old 09-10-2016, 05:54   #314
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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We have found that 6-7 knots is a comfortable passage speed when sailing to windward in bad weather on our Lagoon 450, especially at night. We are cruisers, not racers. Longevity of boat/equipment and comfort of crew (wife and I) are more important to us than speed.
At night anything above 6 knots I tend to slow the boat down, even if we are just running under motor as things seem faster at night and hitting something at 8 to 10 knots at night is not much fun.
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