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Old 07-10-2016, 00:05   #286
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
Perhaps the comment was intended to bother? Otherwise, different wording would have been used.

Our Lagoon frequently sails faster than many other catamarans. Yes, sail. Despite your frequent assertions on this forum that Lagoons can't actually sail, we often sail past other cats, such as the smaller Seawind models. They go slower because they are shorter, being conservatively sailed and frequently overloaded as cruisers. If I had the time and weird obsession, we could conceivably sail around them.

Unless I purposely intended to niggle Seawind owners, I wouldn't dream of posting a statement that I regularly "sail rings around Seawinds". Particularly when the relative perormance of my brand and model is not even being discussed.

Of course, many or even most catamarans sail faster than Lagoons. No Lagoon owner would deny this. They make no pretensions of being "performance cats" or even "cruiser racers". Pollux's mono seriously outperformed the Lagoon 400 to windward. He described the difference in performance without the put downs of "can't sail" or "we sailed rings around".

You don't understand? I wonder.
Tell you what. Show me ONE time I've said that Lagoons can't sail.

Or better still why not quote someone accurately? Think you might give that a try, just once, for a change?

The point I was making was that Polux's chest beating about how his racing oriented monohull managed to sail away from a charter/accommodation -oriented cat was meaningless. And worthless. If he'd sailed away from a Gunboat, or an Outremer, then yes it's of interest.

It's about comparing apples with apples.


BTW, and I really didn't think I'd need to explain this. (Maybe I should become a primary school teacher)


The phrase "Sail rings around" is a figure of speech. Quite a commonly used one. It doesn't mean I spend my time actually sailing rings around Lagoons. I really would think an adult would be able to work that out for himself.... but there you go...
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Old 07-10-2016, 00:11   #287
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Grace View Post
good overview below of actual results sailing upwind on a well setup cat, pretty self explanatory overview on real angles and speeds when going upwind.

Upwind Catamaran Sailing onboard ROAM — Sail Surf ROAM
I'm seriously amazed they don't point higher than 38' AWA in flat water. They may be trading height for speed too much?

Our autopilot has a VMG optimiser. When you tack it looks for the best angle for VMG. It usually settles at 30' or 31' AWA. In stronger breeze it can be less.

I'd really expect Roam to be closer to that.
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Old 07-10-2016, 00:34   #288
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

Not that Polux needs me to come to his defense but i dont read chest beating into his post. I can see how some may interpret it that way but i just see him reporting his experience. A comparison between two different boats, not a better or worse, just his observations regarding sailing in the given conditions. Its easy for us to misintepret others intentions on a forum.
Only last week my 33 foot mono sailed 35nm in the same time as a 40 foot lagoon, which surprised me. Does this mean my Freedom is as good or better than the lagoon? Absolutely not! Id have that the lagoon in a heart beat, just on that day in those conditions considering sailing speed only i was surprised that we were as quick, im sure they were much more comfortable before, during and after the sail...lol.

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Old 07-10-2016, 03:12   #289
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
It's possible. If we're anchored.

I don't understand a couple of things. Why does my comment about sailing rings round Lagoons bother you? It's a simple statement of fact. Every boat is a compromise.

Our boat is designed to sail to windward. To do this we have less accommodation than a similar length production boat. It's a choice of compromise we made. You chose differently. Your choice results in you having more space, less sailing performance.

These are simply facts. They're not insults.

actually i think lagoon can sail circles around you in 25 kn + winds.

Why am I sayin that is research I have done.

your cat has high centre of weight. Which is fine in light winds.

Also your cat has slim hulls. This causes boat to move like pendulum, like mono in strong conditions.

Both above effects casue your boat to be less stable in strong conditions.

Hence you cannot complete with weight and buoyancy of lagoons once enough wind.


Just observation, no insult intended.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:21   #290
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
actually i think lagoon can sail circles around you in 25 kn + winds.

Why am I sayin that is research I have done.

your cat has high centre of weight. Which is fine in light winds.

Also your cat has slim hulls. This causes boat to move like pendulum, like mono in strong conditions.

Both above effects casue your boat to be less stable in strong conditions.

Hence you cannot complete with weight and buoyancy of lagoons once enough wind.


Just observation, no insult intended.
hahahaha ... good "analysis"
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:32   #291
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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hahahaha ... good "analysis"

haha, touching some soft spots

it is actually true, however emotions will not let you see the truth. Financial markets use this fact to rip off masses.

It is also true that one needs to prepare sailing gear properly to sail well in strong conditions. Your charter setup lagoon will not do that.
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Old 07-10-2016, 03:39   #292
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Tell you what. Show me ONE time I've said that Lagoons can't sail.

Or better still why not quote someone accurately? Think you might give that a try, just once, for a change?
To me; "but maybe if you had a boat that sailed, you could carry less fuel?"

NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

Please check that I have quoted you accurately. Post #27
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Old 07-10-2016, 05:19   #293
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
actually i think lagoon can sail circles around you in 25 kn + winds.

Why am I sayin that is research I have done.

your cat has high centre of weight. Which is fine in light winds.

Also your cat has slim hulls. This causes boat to move like pendulum, like mono in strong conditions.

Both above effects casue your boat to be less stable in strong conditions.

Hence you cannot complete with weight and buoyancy of lagoons once enough wind.


Just observation, no insult intended.
Just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Just an observation.

I really have to wonder where you came up with the notion about the centre of weight?
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Old 07-10-2016, 05:22   #294
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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To me; "but maybe if you had a boat that sailed, you could carry less fuel?"

NEW 47? ok, nice, but what's the diff' ??

Please check that I have quoted you accurately. Post #27
Failed, dismally. Raises questions about your paranoia though...
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Old 07-10-2016, 05:31   #295
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

Unbelievable. Not only mono vs multi we now have multi vs multi.

Can we move on?
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Old 07-10-2016, 05:39   #296
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Just about the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Just an observation.

I really have to wonder where you came up with the notion about the centre of weight?

your arguments rock ! typical psychological profile of denial.
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Old 07-10-2016, 05:44   #297
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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your arguments rock ! typical psychological profile of denial.
SO explain how you figure an Oram 44C has a higher COG than a Lagoon 40? Because it baffles me.
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Old 07-10-2016, 05:49   #298
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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good overview below of actual results sailing upwind on a well setup cat, pretty self explanatory overview on real angles and speeds when going upwind.

Upwind Catamaran Sailing onboard ROAM — Sail Surf ROAM
Thanks for posting. That is a good contribution regarding objective information.

Roam is a beautiful boat, a Spirited 480 designed by Craig Schonning, a high performance big cat with daggerboards (8T). The information provided regarding upwind sailing seems honest and credible to me for that type of cat, the ones with a better performance upwind.


"Having sailed 3000Nm of the last 4000Nm since leaving Tasmania with the wind fwd of the beam, we have probably figured out as much as we want to learn about up wind sailing.....

So lets talk real life tacking angles .. However, due to boat speed and a little leeway the TWA is 50 to 55. This makes our average tacking angle 110 to 115 at the end of the day. In ideal conditions we can do a little better, sometimes around 100, but never less and on a shitty bumpy day or pushing a little current, I wouldnt lie to you and say I have never seen a 120 tack
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Old 07-10-2016, 06:00   #299
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
...
The point I was making was that Polux's chest beating about how his racing oriented monohull managed to sail away from a charter/accommodation -oriented cat was meaningless. ....
My only intention was to provide more information regarding performance of different types of boats.

As I said the Lagoon performance downwind and on a beam reach seemed very good to me and that is accordance with the good performance (that I have been noticing) of well sailed "condo cats" (Lagoon, Fountain Pajot) on Atlantic crossings, namely on the ARC, doing not very different passage times than performance cats.

Obviously you don't know my boat. Yes it is a performance boat but not racing oriented, having a very good quality cruising interior. This is a sister ship:
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Old 07-10-2016, 06:07   #300
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by Andrew Grace View Post
good overview below of actual results sailing upwind on a well setup cat, pretty self explanatory overview on real angles and speeds when going upwind.

Upwind Catamaran Sailing onboard ROAM — Sail Surf ROAM
That's very good performance indeed.

I'm a little puzzled how he can tack in 100 degrees over ground, if he's sailing so large at 38 degrees AWA, but I guess those daggerboards might be extremely efficient plus lots of speed? 90% of TWS is impressive.

In those conditions, I sail much closer to the wind (28 to 30 AWA at optimum VMG) but slower -- about 2/3 of TWS. And I do not tack much if any closer over ground -- I'm pretty happy with 100 degrees over ground and can do better only on rare occasions.

This is another data point disproving the idea that cats can't sail to windward.

In my opinion, most cats indeed can't sail to windward, but most cruising monos can't, either. Making a significant rate of advance against the wind is hard. It requires getting the boat set up well, and it requires sailing her well. It's my impression that the elite minority of cats which can really make miles upwind is not a smaller proportion of the whole cat population, than is true among monos, and that this alleged advantage of monos is purely mythical.


I agree with 44CC that ability to sail upwind is really important, if you actually want to cover large distances in any condition other than just following the trades somewhere. Because of apparent wind, MOST sailing directions taken at random will have the wind ahead of the beam, and nearly 1/3 (depending on your tacking angle over ground) can't be laid without tacking, and will require sailing at max VMG to windward.

The motor is not usually an acceptable substitute, except in a real motor sailer with a really powerful engine. Because the power required to get the boat up against the wind goes up geometrically. With a certain degree of head sea, it starts to become impossible. So there's no substitute for ability to sail upwind, in a sailing boat.
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