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Old 25-01-2016, 06:27   #136
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Just another data point on Windward performance.

The Surf to City Race is a traditional January race from Southport to Shorncliffe, via the inshore route for smaller boats, and offshore for boats that can meet the RRS applicable category. Normally a reahing running race (direction is roughly north, wind usually south east) This year a windward race the whole way, northerly dying breeze whilst heading roughly north.

See attached rough guide map. Obviously the course lines are indicative only.

So the fastest Offshore mono was a Ker 50 - (built by McConaghy Yachts - see link here - Kerumba Video and specs etc) fairly much a weapon race with great cruising facility as well ( a a stunning interior - complete with carbon fibre dunny) took 15 hrs 34 mins and the Second was a Farr 40 - took 18:27 , the rest of the monos took over 20 hours.

Fastest off shore multi was Mojo (Cruiser racer Schionning , accent on performance) which took 14:14 next took 18:44 (Renaissance another schionning but different older model and certainly more cruisy than Mojo.

For the record Mojo cost a fair bit less than Kerumba - quite a lot less in fact. Mojo has raced/cruised all obver south east asia.

The pattern is repeated in the inshore Race but more pronounced with the first seven multis beating all the monos. Fastest multi a little over 6 hours and fastest mono a bit over 9.

So - a race where everyone is trying, rather than a random video of two boats wandering aimlessly together. Perhaps more valid.
Mojo is a beautiful boat but as you say used and pointed mostly for racing.

The two boats, the Amel and the Barramundi are two cruising boats and they were not wandering aimlessly together but they were racing to a destination upwind specifically to compare upwind performance.

The race you posted is not only an upwind race but a race with mixed winds, like for instance the Fastnet. Regarding the performance of production performance multihulls and production production cruising monohulls that is a good place to look at, even if the owners of cruising cats seem to be much less inclined to racing than their counterparts (given the number of boats of each type racing).

Off course this respects an overall performance, upwind and downwind as well as beam reach. If it was only an upwind race the results would be far worse for cats, if only a downwind race like the ARC, far better.

On this year's edition you could see a small production JPK 1088 cruiser/racer beating all the production cruiser/racers cats except a 50ft cat that was slightly faster. Facts are what they are, facts and in what regards cruising cats never said that a cat with daggerboars cannot have a very good performance upwind even if normally slightly worse than the one of a performance monohull.

The Amel is known to have not a great performance upwind. The guy from the other cat, a Catana with daggerboards talked about on the interview of a performance of 35 apparent upwind regarding his cat with good sails. I would say that is about the performance of the Amel.

Most performance cruising monohulls can get slightly below 30 apparent. Of course it is possible to have cats more racing oriented with a better upwind performance than the Catana (as monohulls racing oriented can do better too) but the Catana are pretty good in what regards average performance production cruising cats.

I will not respond more to this thread because I am going to Dusseldorf for a week to see some boats. Really hope that this year regarding multihulls there will be more than the fat condo cats that seems that is most cat sailor's desire. The only honorable exception use to be Dragonfly that has always there some gorgeous boats. There is talks about a bigger one. I will check that out ;-).
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Old 25-01-2016, 07:37   #137
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

A couple of posts have had to be removed. Let's try keep the name calling out of the discussion (and quotes) to avoid having to remove otherwise useful posts. Be nice to your fellow sailors 👨*❤️*👨
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Old 25-01-2016, 08:46   #138
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Just another data point on Windward performance.

The Surf to City Race is a traditional January race from Southport to Shorncliffe, via the inshore route for smaller boats, and offshore for boats that can meet the RRS applicable category. Normally a reahing running race (direction is roughly north, wind usually south east) This year a windward race the whole way, northerly dying breeze whilst heading roughly north.

See attached rough guide map. Obviously the course lines are indicative only.

So the fastest Offshore mono was a Ker 50 - (built by McConaghy Yachts - see link here - Kerumba Video and specs etc) fairly much a weapon race with great cruising facility as well ( a a stunning interior - complete with carbon fibre dunny) took 15 hrs 34 mins and the Second was a Farr 40 - took 18:27 , the rest of the monos took over 20 hours.

Fastest off shore multi was Mojo (Cruiser racer Schionning , accent on performance) which took 14:14 next took 18:44 (Renaissance another schionning but different older model and certainly more cruisy than Mojo.

For the record Mojo cost a fair bit less than Kerumba - quite a lot less in fact. Mojo has raced/cruised all obver south east asia.

The pattern is repeated in the inshore Race but more pronounced with the first seven multis beating all the monos. Fastest multi a little over 6 hours and fastest mono a bit over 9.

So - a race where everyone is trying, rather than a random video of two boats wandering aimlessly together. Perhaps more valid.
This is useful, objective information -- thanks.

My one experience sailing cats was just like Kenomacs -- two week charter of a Norseman cat in the Windward Islands. The boat sailed terribly (despite the charter company's claiming it was a "performance cruiser") and was in terrible condition, which kind of put me off cats. I did not assume, however, that all cats sailed the same way.

This and other information I've read in various places has pretty much convinced me that difference in windward ability between cats and monos is a bit of a red herring. I liked the explanation in the video (don't know why you guys didn't like it). A clapped-out, overloaded condo cat with blown out sails of course will not go to windward. Just like a clapped-out charter mono with blown out sails will not. The windward performance of that Catana looked quite acceptable. The key of course is speed -- speed counters leeway and makes an enormous difference to real tacking angle over ground.

I continue to be convinced that there is rough parity between cats and monos if you really compare like for like -- NOT foot for foot by LOA, but volume and cost, compared to the same volume and cost, i.e. 45' cat in the same place on the comfort-performance scale, with a 55' mono ditto.

At the extremes, really fat condo cats maybe don't go upwind quite as well as fat cruising monos, and really high performance cats are probably faster than any feasibly cruisable mono, but in between it looks very much to me like there is some kind of rough parity.

I liked that Catana in the video. Very nice looking boat, explained in a very convincing way by a smart skipper.


I also agree with Kenomac that the cat vs. mono dispute is a silly Internet phenomenon, which you is never observed in real life. Polite people don't run down other people's boats, just like you wouldn't run down other people's wives, religion, etc. It's just basic courtesy and respect, something we could use more of in the virtual world. And in any case, in all three cases, personal taste is the main factor, and to each his own.
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Old 25-01-2016, 09:24   #139
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

The Barramundi 470 owner interview by the guys of the Amel (Delos) is also a very interesting one. The guy is a a very nice guy and again a very knowledgeable sailor that having had a performance monohull has now a performance multihull.

Said that he did not like condo cats but that he really likes his boat. When asked what boat he will have in the future he said that he would never have again the money that boat had costed him but after more than one circumnavigation he seems to consider the med, probably again and in that case he says a monohull would be better (probably due to lots of upwind sailing).

Very good considerations about a lot of things, one of them in what regards keels versus daggerboards. He talks about a difference of about 5 of pointing ability and that is consistent with what the Catana sailor had said, referring to pointing at 35 apparent, since he says that he points to 40.

In what concerns daggerboards he points some interesting disadvantages like the possibility of them breaking alone due to strong lateral movements and the strong possibility of breakage due to impact leaving the rudder vulnerable.

He gaves as example a log that they bumped on (a more usual thing than containers, on my experience) that they have bumped on at speed without any consequence. He says it will probably would have broke the daggerboard, the rudder and may have damaged the drive.

I never thought about that but regarding a cat with daggerboards a keel boat being it monohull or multihull has some big advantages in what concerns that.

Listening to this interview and the one with the Catana owner, again it seems that the conflituality between cat sailors and monohull sailors is a thing of this forum. I believe that the segregation of forums is in part responsible for that.

I don't see the point, they are all sailboats and in what concerns them, I, like that Barramundi sailor, would easily have a multihull or a monohull and like him the type, meaning a performance boat, would be more important than to be monohull or multihull.

Maybe that segregation was necessary at a time that cats were seen by many as dangerous but I believe that on this forum most of the members are way out of that type of misconceptions and segregation only contributes for the kind of attitude segregated groups always end up having: kind of my group is better than yours and in this case, and depending on the group, multihulls (or monohulls) are better for cruising, faster and so on.
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Old 25-01-2016, 11:57   #140
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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The Barramundi 470 owner interview by the guys of the Amel (Delos) is also a very interesting one. The guy is a a very nice guy and again a very knowledgeable sailor that having had a performance monohull has now a performance multihull.

Edit

Listening to this interview and the one with the Catana owner, again it seems that the conflituality between cat sailors and monohull sailors is a thing of this forum. I believe that the segregation of forums is in part responsible for that.

I don't see the point, they are all sailboats and in what concerns them, I, like that Barramundi sailor, would easily have a multihull or a monohull and like him the type, meaning a performance boat, would be more important than to be monohull or multihull.

Maybe that segregation was necessary at a time that cats were seen by many as dangerous but I believe that on this forum most of the members are way out of that type of misconceptions and segregation only contributes for the kind of attitude segregated groups always end up having: kind of my group is better than yours and in this case, and depending on the group, multihulls (or monohulls) are better for cruising, faster and so on.
I agree. How else does one find out information about multihull boats other than watching videos, asking owners, test sail, reading articles and discussing the differences?
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Old 25-01-2016, 12:07   #141
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
. . .
Listening to this interview and the one with the Catana owner, again it seems that the conflituality between cat sailors and monohull sailors is a thing of this forum. I believe that the segregation of forums is in part responsible for that.

I don't see the point, they are all sailboats and in what concerns them, I, like that Barramundi sailor, would easily have a multihull or a monohull and like him the type, meaning a performance boat, would be more important than to be monohull or multihull.

Maybe that segregation was necessary at a time that cats were seen by many as dangerous but I believe that on this forum most of the members are way out of that type of misconceptions and segregation only contributes for the kind of attitude segregated groups always end up having: kind of my group is better than yours and in this case, and depending on the group, multihulls (or monohulls) are better for cruising, faster and so on.
This is insightful and I agree with it completely.

I am basically a boat whore, to be honest, and love all kinds of boats, without much regard to how many hulls, or anything else. I've been like this since I was a small child. I am actually a bigger slut than Polux is, because I don't only love performance oriented boats; I also love gaff riggers, motor sailers, bilge keel sailboats, sailing dinghies, row boats, stout motor yachts, and just all kind of things, almost anything that floats. Almost every boat has something or another to love -- because to design a boat is almost impossible without love. I just cannot understand people who identify strongly with one type of boat and hate all others, and I have never actually met such people except in the Internet.

One thing I can say about Polux, is that although he can be quite the pedant (it takes one, to know one , so as a pedant myself, I have the right to say this ), and although I often disagree with him, sometimes pretty violently, I for sure can say one thing about him: if he criticizes some aspect of some boat or design or type of design, he is doing it out completely without malice or prejudice. He is for sure completely agnostic about types of boats; he cares only for how they work, based on his exhaustive theoretical study of boat design. So you may disagree with him, as I often do, but don't accuse him of malice or prejudice -- just answer the points he makes!
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Old 25-01-2016, 13:37   #142
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Mojo is a beautiful boat but as you say used and pointed mostly for racing.
Wrong, it is used forCruising, but races every chance it gets.

Quote:
The race you posted is not only an upwind race but a race with mixed winds
, Goodness me, it was not mixed winds, NOT mixed winds, it was constant Northerly (ne and nw) - this is not a guess it is the reality. This is not about what you presume, it is WHAT happened last Saturday and for the slow boats, Sunday. It was on the nose the whole way,
Quote:
Off course this respects an overall performance, upwind and downwind as well as beam reach.
No - no it doesn't it was, and I will type slowly so you can understand AN UPWIND RACE THE WHOLE WAY.
Quote:
If it was only an upwind race the results would be far worse for cats,
You know this how? I am still waiting for your multihull experience to be described so I can judge whether you have any direct experience that qualifies you to comment.

I am amazed that you can simply disagree with the facts half way round the world regarding metrology

Here is the DATA from the Bureau of Meteorology for Cape Moreton for the Day of the race, these aren't ill informed guesses they are facts. The various races started around 9 to 9.30 am
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Old 25-01-2016, 13:42   #143
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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I also agree with Kenomac that the cat vs. mono dispute is a silly Internet phenomenon, which you is never observed in real life. Polite people don't run down other people's boats, just like you wouldn't run down other people's wives, religion, etc. It's just basic courtesy and respect, something we could use more of in the virtual world. And in any case, in all three cases, personal taste is the main factor, and to each his own.

The thing is, you're a polite person with a monohull. So you wouldn't denigrate another person's boat, simply because it has the "wrong" number of hulls.

But the fact is, plenty of people will. And they'll sometimes do it to your face. We've had people tell us cat's can't cross oceans. Even though thousands have. We've had people tell us of course, that our boat can't sail to windward. Always fun if there's a windward sail next day... of course then they'll claim we motored. (100% of the time?)

There are people who absolutely blindly hate multihulls. Never been on one (and never will if they can help it.) but hate them anyway.
You possibly never see this, because you own a "Proper boat".

But it exists.
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Old 25-01-2016, 13:50   #144
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S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

A couple of quick notes on personal experience from some of the above comments that may be of help to readers. Firstly I'll mention I've been sailing and racing cats since I bought my first 11' Arafura cadet at age 11 and now live aboard a lagoon 400 condomaran and between have built, sailed and raced mosquitos, QB2s, hobie 18s, and 40'-60' monos such as Sydney 40's. I love to race and had there been a fleet of offshore racing cats close to home I would likely have participated on those rather than the mono's, but sunny port Phillip bay has around 10000:1 mono to cat ratio, although that's probably changing a bit these days. That said, the main enjoyment for me from racing is sailing against similar yachts, wether they be mirror dinghys or A class cats, I enjoy it more if there is a fleet of the same class. There's no waiting around for the handicapper to find out how well you sailed or if the handicap rating might be anywhere near accurate for the particular conditions as well as the other boats. It obvious from the start and between legs if your sail trim and tactics are paying off when you race the same class and you learn a lot from the more experienced sailors on and off the course. I did enjoy racing the bigger mono's as there were always comparable boats to race against on the day and I learnt a lot from sailing with a larger crew that I hadn't on smaller cats. Actual boat speed has always seemed pretty immaterial. Some of the most exiting races take place in light wind conditions where 5kt boat speed is the norm, some take place in 30kt where boat speeds are higher.
Anyway, our current cat has nothing to do with our desire to race. She has more to do with wanting a comfortable, safe, cost efficient and enjoyable way to sail across oceans. Sailing performance comes into the equation along with price, comfort, payload,running costs, resell ability and a hundred other pros and cons of any design. Im pretty sure if we were to live back on land and wanted a yacht for weekend sailing and the occasional week or month away, our priorities would be totally different, as would out choice of boat.
Regarding the seasickness, I've been very prone to seasickness in the past, even while surfing after a night on the 🍻. I find our cat to be less likely to bring on any seasickness than any other yachts I've sailed in any direction of sail. More so downwind as there is very little rolling, but also upwind. Motoring in any direction is also more likely to bring on some seasickness than sailing. That's just a personal comment though because perhaps having sailed cats for 40 yrs my brain and body are more accustomed to the motions than had I sailed monos more as a kid. I think a lot of seasickness is brought on by the brains fear of the Unknown. The brain doesn't understand why the body is rolling about but the eyes tell it nothing is moving, especially when below decks. For me, keeping the eyes off stationary objects helps a lot so I usually take the helm and look at the sea, or relax and close my eyes if off watch. Either way works pretty well. The other point is that as we spend more time sailing, the fear of the Unknown becomes less. Our brains begin to understand that things will be out of sync with the eyes, and accepts that. Also seasickness is made more acute by anxiety. Being anxious about the current conditions, or conditions ahead can put the body into fight or flight mode, tensing muscles and bringing other symptoms that eventually turn to seasickness.
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Old 25-01-2016, 13:54   #145
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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One thing I can say about Polux, is that although he can be quite the pedant (it takes one, to know one , so as a pedant myself, I have the right to say this ), and although I often disagree with him, sometimes pretty violently, I for sure can say one thing about him: if he criticizes some aspect of some boat or design or type of design, he is doing it out completely without malice or prejudice. He is for sure completely agnostic about types of boats; he cares only for how they work, based on his exhaustive theoretical study of boat design. So you may disagree with him, as I often do, but don't accuse him of malice or prejudice -- just answer the points he makes!

Unfortunately, you're wrong. The prejudice is there alright. Maybe you don't see it, but it is most certainly there.

An example - I posted a video of our boat sailing to windward at around 9 knots at 30' apparent in around 12-13 knots of wind. Basically to demonstrate that we don't motor 100% of the time. (Oh yeah the guy who said that reckons he's unbiased too...)

Jim Cate - a guy whose views (and boat choice) I respect, simply said - yes, that boat can sail to windward. THAT'S what you'd expect from someone without a strong bias.

Pollux, on the other hand, firstly claimed I must have had tide with me, that the waves were too small, going in the wrong direction that th ewind direction was different from what the instruments indicated etc etc etc... then went to great lengths to find a similar size monohull (One pretty much designed for racing BTW) that could manage a VMG 1/10 of a knot better. If he's not biased, why would he do that? Why go to all that trouble to find a boat just a fraction faster?

Then, he went on to point out that it also reached just as fast. Then LIED about what sails were used to set this reaching speed.

If he truly had no bias, why LIE to "prove" a point, that he supposedly has no real interest in proving?

More recently he LIED about the type (depth) of keels the boat in the Delos video has. Again, if he had no agenda, why lie?
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Old 25-01-2016, 14:00   #146
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Only for a dozen or so cat owners who feel the need to prove some point, otherwise nobody else really cares. The personal friends we know on cats or mono hulls all seem quite pleased with their choices and couldn't care less about what others think of their boat.
If someone walk into a group of people discussing lets say motorcycling and start to make ill-informed comments don't be surprised if the people there people disagree with you. With all due respect some of the stuff that Polux is claiming - suggesting is based on anecdotal accounts rather than valid evidential process, it indicates to me he has never been on a properly designed well sailed multihull. If someone is going to spread falsehoods about something then it is incumbent on those who actually have some knowledge to point out those falsehood.

And in any event I fail to understand why disagreeing with someone who has no direct experience is wrong.

Like the daggerboard discussion, much of what he is concerned about is not in fact likely to happen, how many Outremers break daggerboards? And these are possibly the most widely cruised boats on the ocean, with over half of the total launched crossing at least one ocean, and over 25% circumnavigating. The concern about rudder protection is interesting, there are in fact ways to protect spade rudders, and of course you can have dagger rudders.

Sadly Polux seems to need to disagree for the sake of it. In the Dakar thread he said that Toby Price who won the bikes did the wrong thing by putting in a couple of big days to build a massive lead, i pointed out that there are tactical reasons for this ( I have won an Australian Rally Championship - just the one and many years ago, but none the less I thought that might give me the experience to understand rally tactics) Polux disagreed, based on no knowledge of Toby and his team and apparently little actual competition, for the record, I spoke with one of Toby's crew recently, good mate of mine, and put Polux's postulation to him, he laughed, a lot, and said that not only were they the team tactics, but that anyone who thought that Red Bull Team KTM didn't have a plan and strategy for every minute of the race, was - to use his words, not very bright.

Again, I will say it, I have no idea what goes on in the Mono thread I am not qualified to critique various aspects, so I don't.

And on the issue on monos and multi owners disagreeing, apart from a few wankers my experience cruising suggests no one gives a crap what boat you own, just how cold your beer is when they visit. In all my trips probably the only time someone wanted to pick a fight with me it was a guy with the oldest slowest and ugliest pice a crap I have ever seen. I can understand his need to be defensive.
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Old 25-01-2016, 14:30   #147
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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. . .Sadly Polux seems to need to disagree for the sake of it.. .
Indeed, but that is absolutely nothing against cats -- just the way he is. Don't take it personally.
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Old 25-01-2016, 14:49   #148
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

Originally Posted by Factor
. . .Sadly Polux seems to need to disagree for the sake of it.. .


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Indeed, but that is absolutely nothing against cats -- just the way he is. Don't take it personally.
That does not seem a comment that should be made by a moderator. It is a personal comment, out of topic, seems to me against the rules of the forum, it is not substantiated, has the only finality to diminish the credibility of a member of this forum that contrary to you, regarding what you are saying, has the care to substantiate what he posts.

Ok, maybe you were kidding, hard to say on internet, but then you should have posted a smile.

I am pissed, the ambiance is a little tense. I got a post edited and I cannot understand why. What was edited was on the subject of this tread and it was a call of attention for some things that was said by the owner of that Barramundi regarding an interview the guys of Delos have made with him about the subject of this thread and some comments about it.

This interview:

All that I posted was or directly regarding what was said on that interview or on the previous one. Was edited without any explanation and I truly cannot understand what was there that is against the rules of this forum.
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Old 25-01-2016, 14:51   #149
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

I'm not wanting to turn this into a Polux discussion, bet being a person that knows zilt about performance of any type of boat yet, I can only comment on what I see here on the forum. And Factor and Cruisingboat, you two seem to have constant 'attack' the poster arguments rather than address the comments the poster says. As like in the Sydney to Hobart thread, Polux of all other people commenting, didn't get personal, didn't start accusing anyone of lieing (Cruisingboat), didn't accuse anyone of not having the experience or throwing red herrings in the way (Factor). He simply answered questions and put propositions forward without making it personal.

For someone like me who has little actual sailing experience, he out of most posters seem to know what he's talking about and he's certainly earned my respect to listen to him. If you two want others to listen more to you, perhaps you should stop making it so personal and respond to issues instead of attacking others.

And from what I have experienced in the sailing world in this part of the world, multi hulls are vessels people have a tenancy to 'move up' to from a mono when they can afford one. A bit like going from a Holden to a BMW.
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Old 25-01-2016, 14:54   #150
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Re: S/V Delos discusses mono vs. cat with cruising couple.

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Originally Posted by Factor
. . .Sadly Polux seems to need to disagree for the sake of it.. .

That does not seem a comment that should be made by a moderator. It is a personal comment, out of topic, seems to me against the rules of the forum, it is not substantiated, has the only finality to diminish the credibility of a member of this forum that contrary to you, regarding what you are saying, has the care to substantiate what he posts.
I don't think Dockhead meant it in a negative way Polux. Though I cringed at it too. Dockhead can be a little thoughtless in the way he posts things at times . but he was trying to be supportive of you.
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