Round and Round in Circles

[Heath68]

Hi,
Aargh! Buying a cat is such a lot of money to spend, I am finding my caution is taking me in circles.

I have been trying to find a used 45-51ft cat (for around £550,000) that has a certain amount of luxury but also sails OK. I have reduced the list to 4 makes but there is so little information about performance, I really cannot find anything I can be confident in that tells me roughly which is the quickest/slowest of the shortlist.

I THINK it goes like this: St Francis 50, Knysna 500SE, Privilege 515/series 5 and slowest Dean5000/X5.

Does anyone have any solid data or personal experience they can draw upon and offer? Is there any noticeable performance difference between these offerings? I am hoping to slowly sail and vlog myself round the world writing and filming about local foods & sailing experiences. As you can tell from the list, luxury is a greater priority but i also read that if the cat can't do close to 200nm on a passage then it would struggle to avoid a storm or get across the large oceans. Do you know if any of the above would manage this or get even close?

I have discounted others as they are too expensive (HH, Mcconaghy etc) or we've found an aspect of it that we don't like (almost all the Catana, Outremer, FP, Lagoon, Leopard, Sunreef offerings).

I have also considered having a cat built but without a significant investment in design up front and then trusting a maker with not only getting the build right but also the luxury finish we are after, this is a daunting option.

Heath

[44'cruisingcat]

I'd be looking into a custom build.

With exchange rates being what they are, that money would get you into something nice and fast here in Australia.

[mark_morwood]

Originally Posted by Heath68

luxury is a greater priority but i also read that if the cat can't do close to 200nm on a passage then it would struggle to avoid a storm or get across the large oceans. Do you know if any of the above would manage this or get even close?

Forget the speed is safety argument with respect to all the boats you are looking at, though I think there is validity to the argument that its nice to have the speed to get out of the way of the weather. However, there is no magic around 200 miles/day for safety! 180 v 220 does not make that much difference for weather. If you are crossing oceans, there's always the chance that something that is not forecast far enough ahead for you to get out of the way of will catch you, though if you can do 200 miles/day rather than 100 there will be fewer.

I do not know you, but reading your post, I would guess you are more of a traveler than a sailor - so focus on the traveling features of the boat, rather than the sailing ones. I personally like a boat that will sail fast, because I enjoy sailing, and like to keep sailing even when the wind is light. I do not know the boats you have listed in detail, but I'm sure all of them could be safely sailed across oceans at a reasonable pace. So unless someone you trust who knows the boats suggests that one of them is significantly worse in performance, pick them based on some other criteria that is important to you like luxury. At that length and size of boat, you'll have a hard time going too wrong.

With respect to building one, if I had your budget and was looking for a boat, I might well go that path. But if you don't have a fair bit of experience on a number of boats, I'd be cautious about going down that route as you'll have to make a thousand decisions that you probably don't feel comfortable about.

[alansmith]

Sir, having a custom built boat will cost you in excess of 1million for that size boat. IMO.

The Chris Whites Atlantic Cats are very nice....fast for their size...and I love the look. They have many features that many cats don’t have. Check it out.

I also want to say that fast cats take sailing skills to handle their more capricious behavior. You literally can flip some fast cats ....even with high level sailors aboard. I am sure you have seen the carnage of Gunboats. So, be aware of that component of speed and it’s a real thing. Reef early and always someone near the main sheet dump..

Schionning cats out of Australia are also very nice performance machines. You can get some feel for a boat’s performance by dividing the tonnage of the boat by it’s waterline. Many cats are literally floating condos.

Another factor...and in my mind it is a factor so important...that if you don’t pay attention to this you will pound yourself into oblivion if you choose not to inspect it....Bridgedeck clearance...the height of a bridgedeck from the water surface....is critical in it’s affect on pounding, comfort, and stress on the boat and it’s passengers.

You can find many many boats that are good buys within the last 10 years. Then customize it to your needs...you will be way ahead in the money pit.

Let us know what you end up...respects....

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I'd be looking into a custom build.

With exchange rates being what they are, that money would get you into something nice and fast here in Australia.

I've seen some adverts of designers.. it's not knowing if they're any good that's my issue. How do I guarantee I get most (if not all) of what I want? Can you recommend any? I also know the obvious well known ones but think they'll be way too expensive.

[Heath68]

Originally Posted by mark_morwood

Forget the speed is safety argument with respect to all the boats you are looking at, though I think there is validity to the argument that its nice to have the speed to get out of the way of the weather. However, there is no magic around 200 miles/day for safety! 180 v 220 does not make that much difference for weather. If you are crossing oceans, there's always the chance that something that is not forecast far enough ahead for you to get out of the way of will catch you, though if you can do 200 miles/day rather than 100 there will be fewer.

I do not know you, but reading your post, I would guess you are more of a traveler than a sailor - so focus on the traveling features of the boat, rather than the sailing ones. I personally like a boat that will sail fast, because I enjoy sailing, and like to keep sailing even when the wind is light. I do not know the boats you have listed in detail, but I'm sure all of them could be safely sailed across oceans at a reasonable pace. So unless someone you trust who knows the boats suggests that one of them is significantly worse in performance, pick them based on some other criteria that is important to you like luxury. At that length and size of boat, you'll have a hard time going too wrong.

With respect to building one, if I had your budget and was looking for a boat, I might well go that path. But if you don't have a fair bit of experience on a number of boats, I'd be cautious about going down that route as you'll have to make a thousand decisions that you probably don't feel comfortable about.

Good advice thanks

[Jeannius]

I did 200nm mile days on a few occasions on a 44ft Privilege even though, when crossing oceans, I always sailed conservatively. Every ocean crossing I seemed to take 17 - 19 days. Going faster and knocking a day or two off that time never really seemed important.


As Mark said, it is not really practical to sail out of the way of weather since no one really knows what is going on in the middle of an ocean. Crossing the Indian Ocean we had weather routing and had some pretty nasty uncomfortable weather. Following winds but beam seas, 30 + knots and rain. The forecaster kept saying 'head another degree or two south and you'll get out of it'. He kept repeating this advice for several days and the weather remained the same. I think we ended up having our own personal weather system for around 10 days.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Heath68

i also read that if the cat can't do close to 200nm on a passage then it would struggle to avoid a storm or get across the large oceans.

This is nonsense. People cross oceans in 35' monohulls all the time, averaging 135 mile days. Outrun weather or a storm? Yes maybe you can do it in a few circumstances but it is not something you can count on and I would certainly not choose a boat thinking that it would allow me to with any regularity.

Any of the boats listed is going to peel off 200 mile days in good conditions.

I've been on a St. Francis 50 and a Privilege 50. The St. Francis went like a scalded cat and while the fit out was much less opulent than the Privilege it was plenty for me. The Privilege was gorgeous and sailed well enough.

I would take the "speed is safety" idea out of your deliberations and focus on what you want in terms of comfort, luxury, and sailing performance.

Honestly, you're not going to make a good decision based on reading stuff. Volunteer as crew on passage on a couple of the boats that you're interested in. A week spent living on the actual boat, sailing, with the owner to talk to, will be far more informative. All it will cost you is airfare, and you'll probably have a really good time too.

[captlloyd]

You are going to be caught in storms, fact of life. Most boats can take more than their crews. All part of sailing.

[woc]

Originally Posted by Heath68

Hi,
Aargh! Buying a cat is such a lot of money to spend, I am finding my caution is taking me in circles.

I have been trying to find a used 45-51ft cat (for around £550,000) that has a certain amount of luxury but also sails OK. I have reduced the list to 4 makes but there is so little information about performance, I really cannot find anything I can be confident in that tells me roughly which is the quickest/slowest of the shortlist.

I THINK it goes like this: St Francis 50, Knysna 500SE, Privilege 515/series 5 and slowest Dean5000/X5.

Does anyone have any solid data or personal experience they can draw upon and offer? Is there any noticeable performance difference between these offerings? I am hoping to slowly sail and vlog myself round the world writing and filming about local foods & sailing experiences. As you can tell from the list, luxury is a greater priority but i also read that if the cat can't do close to 200nm on a passage then it would struggle to avoid a storm or get across the large oceans. Do you know if any of the above would manage this or get even close?

I have discounted others as they are too expensive (HH, Mcconaghy etc) or we've found an aspect of it that we don't like (almost all the Catana, Outremer, FP, Lagoon, Leopard, Sunreef offerings).

I have also considered having a cat built but without a significant investment in design up front and then trusting a maker with not only getting the build right but also the luxury finish we are after, this is a daunting option.

Heath

You don’t mention how you intend to sail in terms of crew. I have been sailing my Lagoon450 ( Owner version) for the past four years straight now with my partner only on a round the world tour starting out in Florida US and presently in Australia. 22 Ton fully loaded. I have my 200 mile plus days but manage well on 150 miles average very well. For two people we have every creature comfort . Unless you intend to have many guests or more crew on board a larger cat in my view would be an unnecessary cost increase. Not only in purchase but marina fees and more restrictive haul out locations around the world.
Also, don’t underestimate the cost to “personalize” your cat. It would be rare to find the cat that has everything you would want for extended cruising.
From a safety perspective I think a cat “ that can take some rough weather” is a better choice than a fast cat, none of which will be able to outrun a localized storm cell that may be crossing your path. I would focus on a well equipped model with the comforts that are important to you and be less concerned with speed. Best of luck

[BillsWife1]

Proud Knysna owner here...so please view my response with that in mind.

Two years ago we purchased a Knysna 440. in Sint Maarten and sailed her back to the US on a 9 1/2 day offshore passage where we experienced some heavy weather. I have numerous reasons why we chose a Knysna, but I think you may be of the same mindset we were since your "list" and our "list of finalists" was similar.

For the most part it will be just my husband and I with occasional guests so a 44' suits our needs. Sure a 48 or 50' boat would be nice but the beam, maintenance and upkeep were deterrents to falling into the trap of bigger is better. Someone already mentioned this, but it bears repeating. Each increased foot equals upkeep. Each increased inch of beam equals fewer suitable marinas and boat yards.

The above notes aside, what I can tell you is that we love our boat. We love the layout, her performance, and her build quality. We started a major refit November 2017 that includes replacing all running and standing rigging including a reefing system where all the lines are now in the cockpit, re-powering ( could have rebuilt but opted for new), new electronics, re-bedding everything on deck, new lithium battery bank and solar array, adding 2 freezers, electric cook top, 4kw inverter, dive compressor and 100 other little jobs. I'm sure that a lot of people would think the extent of our refit is crazy but this is our home for the next 10 to 15 years and this it works for us.

Here's the moral of the story...at every turn we have been impressed at how she was built. Every structural bit of her has been rock solid. My husband and I have been in every nook and cranny of her and can't say enough about her integrity. Again, as some one already said...she will take A LOT more than we would ever want to see.

Our particular layout is ideal for us, but may not work for someone else. I have a galley down. I LOVE a galley down. Other people HATE a galley down.

Performance, as already stated you should avoid being in a scenario of trying to out run the weather, but weather happens. On our trip back from Sint Maarten we chose to add an extra day and a half by skirting a weather front. We did experience some confused seas and some decent wave height. After the initial few hours of feeling nervous (we just bought the boat and this was our first trip) and checking the bilges, hatches, and rigging repeatedly I was able to settle down and enjoy the ride.

So are there things we are not in love with...yes, but they are minor. You will never find the perfect boat, but hopefully you find the perfect boat for you.

If you have other questions feel free to PM me.

SV Caterpillar
"Inching Our Way Around The World"

[Bean Counter]

Originally Posted by woc

You don’t mention how you intend to sail in terms of crew. I have been sailing my Lagoon450 ( Owner version) for the past four years straight now with my partner only on a round the world tour starting out in Florida US and presently in Australia. 22 Ton fully loaded. I have my 200 mile plus days but manage well on 150 miles average very well. For two people we have every creature comfort . Unless you intend to have many guests or more crew on board a larger cat in my view would be an unnecessary cost increase. Not only in purchase but marina fees and more restrictive haul out locations around the world.
Also, don’t underestimate the cost to “personalize” your cat. It would be rare to find the cat that has everything you would want for extended cruising.
From a safety perspective I think a cat “ that can take some rough weather” is a better choice than a fast cat, none of which will be able to outrun a localized storm cell that may be crossing your path. I would focus on a well equipped model with the comforts that are important to you and be less concerned with speed. Best of luck

Agree with WOC. We too have a Lagoon 450F. We had our head spinning with spreadsheets and the like 4 years ago too. On paper our dream boat for the money was a Leopard 46, the deal fell through and we got a younger Lagoon 450 for a bit more $, that was all that was available in the used market that met "most" of our criteria at the time. We are very happy on this boat and are so glad to have got the fly bridge vs the halfway house helm. The spread sheet said the L46 was a better sailing boat, turns out that is not quite true either - all the stub keel cats are pretty similar in performance for waterline length - they are not race boats. Sure on some angles some will be fractionally better, but the crew and sail management makes the biggest difference to "performance". You can drive yourself nuts with all the compromises, or you can bite the bullet and get on with your cruising life, none of the first 3 would be a bad choice - I don't know much about the Dean, other than its extremely raked back mast and low bridge deck, I thought they had gone bust.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by woc

.
From a safety perspective I think a cat “ that can take some rough weather” is a better choice than a fast cat,

There are fast cats that can take rough weather. And some of the slow cats can't.

Most of the performance oriented cat's are built using superior materials, with all bulkheads fully glassed in for example. Because they're often sailing in stronger apparent wind, their sail handling systems are optimized, ie. each sheet will have it's own winch, not sharing a winch and held in a clutch.

[Mrfish]

I only have one comment here,

Although I have been cruising on a catamaran a few decades ago.

If your dinghy can't go from stern to bow or vice versa under the bridge deck and between the hulls, than you need to look for another cat to sail the world in.

Mf Fish

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Mrfish

I only have one comment here,

Although I have been cruising on a catamaran a few decades ago.

If your dinghy can't go from stern to bow or vice versa under the bridge deck and between the hulls, than you need to look for another cat to sail the world in.

Mf Fish

Interesting. I haven't heard it put that way but - I agree. Mine won't because it has a center console but a standard dingy would.