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Old 20-06-2018, 21:31   #31
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Youíre absolutely correct, but do remember that a bridgedeck is not a hull, so the diverted water of a nacelle will still interact with the rest of the bridgedeck and itís connections to the hulls. A wave slap will still slap. And no one on a catamaran, great nacelle or not, will miss out on the thump and crash of a big wave slap when the conditions are up.

I have seen some nacelles so deep that theyíre almost at water level, almost making it a trimaran. Wow. Constructing the water flow between the hulls canít be a good thing, nacelle or not. Hence the desire for bridgedeck height.

What shouldnít be ignored either is the fore and aft dimensions of the bridgedeck. A shorter bridgedeck will be more comfortable than a longer bridgedeck with comparable vertical clearance, but at the obvious cost of less accommodation space.
In my experience with a deep V nacelle, the seakeeping of the boat was exceptional to windward in short but big chop. There was water flow noise, as there is with the rest of the hull, but no slamming whatsoever. It was a remarkably soft ride.

I will say that this particular design had very high clearance back under the cockpit where the wave train exits. THAT is where many cats slam as the bow waves converge in the tunnel and rise up at the end of the bridgedeck. That's probably what you are referring to re bridge deck length having an effect on slamming.

This 46 foot cat was heavily loaded with full cruising gear, provisions and full water and fuel. The nacelle lowest point in the center V would have been about 1.5 foot (45cm) off (flat water) surface while the maximum clearance at bridgedeck was just over 3 feet (95cm).

On another occasion on a popular production cat with apparently pretty good bridgedeck clearance, on the same point of sail in less chop, we had regular thumps that shook the boat.

So that's what leads me to conclude that there are some design considerations involved, and that it is not just a matter of the most inches of clearance wins.
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Old 20-06-2018, 21:47   #32
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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My boat is by no means a performance Boat, (monohull) yet I can tell a significant difference now that she is loaded down, compared to when she was light, real significant.
I have done what I can to recover performance, new larger sails, feathering prop etc., but she is still slower now.
I can only assume that more performance oriented designs would be even worse
We also have a noticeable drop in performance. We used to quite routinely sail at 100% or more of wind speed, whereas in similar conditions we now usually only manage 80 - 90%.
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Old 21-06-2018, 14:54   #33
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
Just as with displacement there is stated bridgedeck clearance and there is actual bridgedeck clearance. Get in a dinghy or on a SUP and actually check for yourself. Look for the lowest part of the bridgedeck, including dinghy platforms and nacelles and whatever - thatís the bridgedeck clearance that matters for comfort.

Given your stated preferences, it doesnít look like performance varies greatly between any of those models so just go for the one that feels the best to you and your partner.
Given your last sentence, I suppose I'd be better asking for a list of whys and why nots for the shortlist. There are some like the privilege and Dean that short of having sail drives I can't find any negatives in. Does anyone know any more?
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Old 23-06-2018, 00:08   #34
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

The gentleman that made the comments about Bridge Deck Clearance has made a very significant point. I too do not care for Lagoons, with the exception of 1, the 570's that were built from I think 2001 to 2007. They have tremendous clearance, and are known as the fastest Lagoons ever built. They are also "Tanks" that seem to be super well built and strong. Dont let the extra few feet scare you away. With any 48 foot plus cat, there are going to be times your going to need a mate and you'd do well to always have one on any boat, although you don't mention 1. There are a couple of these old boats on the market that are in great condition. They have very large down galleys with a full size fridge practically.

The boats you are looking at are super nice... and somewhat pricey. You can buy a new Nautitech for your budget. They are very fast and very nice on the interior. I was on an owners version 40 a couple weeks ago in BVI, and the owners had nothing but praise for the boat that they had owned for over a year. I am in the process of purchasing an open 46. A lil more than your budget but I have significant upgrades. Hydranet sails, two extra fridges. Solent. You can get the basic boat from the factory for 560 K U.S dollars from some dealers. but plan on spending another 100 to get all the niceties.

For what its worth, I've been looking at a purchase for over 4 years. Been on all practically everyone you have mentioned. the combo amenities and speed with your similar budget is how we landed where we have. I would say we are happy with our decision but as with all production cats, when there is a budget involved, your gonna have things you wish you could change.
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Old 25-06-2018, 07:51   #35
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

You have a really good budget so get that Privilege 515!

We have a P615, Luar, that we run crewed-charter on. Beautiful lines, lots of luxury, comfort, good performance and built like a brick (especially those built before the market crash in '07). Can I say king bed master cabin? We LOVE that boat. www.sailluar.com

When we first brought her to the BVI, our new crew made a really big deal of prepping for the big sail from Virgin Gorda to Anegada and how it was going to take half the day, we were going to have to get up at daybreak, etc. It took about 90 minutes on a broad reach; anchor-up to anchor-down. We quickly pulled ahead of a bunch of big Lagoons that had full sails up and were motor sailing. :-)

Dream of getting a P515 for ourselves to do a circumnavigation.

Good luck!
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Old 25-06-2018, 09:45   #36
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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Originally Posted by mark_morwood View Post
Forget the speed is safety argument with respect to all the boats you are looking at, though I think there is validity to the argument that its nice to have the speed to get out of the way of the weather. However, there is no magic around 200 miles/day for safety! 180 v 220 does not make that much difference for weather. If you are crossing oceans, there's always the chance that something that is not forecast far enough ahead for you to get out of the way of will catch you, though if you can do 200 miles/day rather than 100 there will be fewer.

I do not know you, but reading your post, I would guess you are more of a traveler than a sailor - so focus on the traveling features of the boat, rather than the sailing ones. I personally like a boat that will sail fast, because I enjoy sailing, and like to keep sailing even when the wind is light. I do not know the boats you have listed in detail, but I'm sure all of them could be safely sailed across oceans at a reasonable pace. So unless someone you trust who knows the boats suggests that one of them is significantly worse in performance, pick them based on some other criteria that is important to you like luxury. At that length and size of boat, you'll have a hard time going too wrong.

With respect to building one, if I had your budget and was looking for a boat, I might well go that path. But if you don't have a fair bit of experience on a number of boats, I'd be cautious about going down that route as you'll have to make a thousand decisions that you probably don't feel comfortable about.
most monohulls can do 180-220 miles per day under trade conditions, or using the engine under less than favorable conditions. If your cat is that slow, you got the wrong cat.
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Old 25-06-2018, 10:21   #37
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

Hi Heath,
We are custom builders & are nearing completion of a DH550. I spent some years research this boat, 12.5 tons light boat, almost 1m Bridge-deck clearance, very large saloon, inside & out helm position, forward access to sail handling cockpit & rigged for short handed sailing. I had the kit cut by Exocetus in the UK, Exocetus Home There is also a 47ft version. Look at Sea-Tribe Catamarans – Luxury or Adventure – Choose your Catamaran! or Boat plans, yacht designs & boat kits from Dudley Dix Yacht Design & Boat Plans. You would be welcome to test sail once we have launched her in September/October. Patrick
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Old 25-06-2018, 16:12   #38
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

Hi,
I can't help with the 4 makes your considering but am curious to know why you've discounted the other models, particularly Lagoon. I've had a Lagoon440 in the past and done shorter cruising through Asia/Australia but am considering another one and longer cruises. Have you ruled them out for comfort or performance?
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Old 25-06-2018, 17:17   #39
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
most monohulls can do 180-220 miles per day under trade conditions, or using the engine under less than favorable conditions. If your cat is that slow, you got the wrong cat.


Really? Most monohulls can do 180-220 miles a day? When you say most are you talking maybe 1% of monohulls?
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Old 25-06-2018, 17:55   #40
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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Originally Posted by reed1v View Post
most monohulls can do 180-220 miles per day under trade conditions, or using the engine under less than favorable conditions. If your cat is that slow, you got the wrong cat.

Most? Thatís 8 knots average speed, which means unless the conditions are really consistent over the entire 24 hour period a sailing boat is not likely to achieve unless it has regular high speeds of 50% faster. Those kind of speeds without really pushing the boat mean a boat much larger than the average, which is still in the low 40s/12-14m range.

As an example from the racing world, so one where crews are working hard to minimise slower than average speeds, the latest Volvo Ocean Race set a number of 24 hour monohull records in the N Atlantic that finally reached near 600 miles. That requires an average of 25 knots. During those runs the boats regularly had sustained high speeds over 30 knots.
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Old 25-06-2018, 19:13   #41
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

Sounds like you know what you want and moving in the right direction stay on the cats you will find the one you want I hope.Best of luck friend and smooth sailing.
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Old 26-06-2018, 04:16   #42
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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Originally Posted by windrider9999 View Post
The gentleman that made the comments about Bridge Deck Clearance has made a very significant point. I too do not care for Lagoons, with the exception of 1, the 570's that were built from I think 2001 to 2007. They have tremendous clearance, and are known as the fastest Lagoons ever built. They are also "Tanks" that seem to be super well built and strong. Dont let the extra few feet scare you away. With any 48 foot plus cat, there are going to be times your going to need a mate and you'd do well to always have one on any boat, although you don't mention 1. There are a couple of these old boats on the market that are in great condition. They have very large down galleys with a full size fridge practically.

The boats you are looking at are super nice... and somewhat pricey. You can buy a new Nautitech for your budget. They are very fast and very nice on the interior. I was on an owners version 40 a couple weeks ago in BVI, and the owners had nothing but praise for the boat that they had owned for over a year. I am in the process of purchasing an open 46. A lil more than your budget but I have significant upgrades. Hydranet sails, two extra fridges. Solent. You can get the basic boat from the factory for 560 K U.S dollars from some dealers. but plan on spending another 100 to get all the niceties.

For what its worth, I've been looking at a purchase for over 4 years. Been on all practically everyone you have mentioned. the combo amenities and speed with your similar budget is how we landed where we have. I would say we are happy with our decision but as with all production cats, when there is a budget involved, your gonna have things you wish you could change.
I went round the Nautitech factory with the then owner. I do like them but felt that the exposed helm wouldn't work for me. I also liked the Catana but found the same issue.
On another thread about ownership costs many comments were that extra length definitely added to costs.. with some wild and some (imo) more realistic guesses. I think actually with mainly only 2 on board and not terribly experienced we wanted to keep size down.

Heath
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Old 26-06-2018, 04:35   #43
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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Originally Posted by gsuescum View Post
You have a really good budget so get that Privilege 515!

We have a P615, Luar, that we run crewed-charter on. Beautiful lines, lots of luxury, comfort, good performance and built like a brick (especially those built before the market crash in '07). Can I say king bed master cabin? We LOVE that boat. www.sailluar.com

When we first brought her to the BVI, our new crew made a really big deal of prepping for the big sail from Virgin Gorda to Anegada and how it was going to take half the day, we were going to have to get up at daybreak, etc. It took about 90 minutes on a broad reach; anchor-up to anchor-down. We quickly pulled ahead of a bunch of big Lagoons that had full sails up and were motor sailing. :-)

Dream of getting a P515 for ourselves to do a circumnavigation.

Good luck!
Thanks for your experience. We do like the 515 a lot, it feels like a nice size without being too big for two to sail. We also liked the Neel 51 and it would certainly be quicker but it just felt too big.... Now, I just need to find one within my budget
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Old 26-06-2018, 04:38   #44
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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Originally Posted by Sea-Tribe View Post
Hi Heath,
We are custom builders & are nearing completion of a DH550. I spent some years research this boat, 12.5 tons light boat, almost 1m Bridge-deck clearance, very large saloon, inside & out helm position, forward access to sail handling cockpit & rigged for short handed sailing. I had the kit cut by Exocetus in the UK, Exocetus Home There is also a 47ft version. Look at Sea-Tribe Catamarans Ė Luxury or Adventure Ė Choose your Catamaran! or Boat plans, yacht designs & boat kits from Dudley Dix Yacht Design & Boat Plans. You would be welcome to test sail once we have launched her in September/October. Patrick
I love the DH550 and without seeing it had discounted it due to her size but after looking at one for sale at the moment it might be ok. Where are you located?
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Old 26-06-2018, 04:51   #45
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Re: Round and Round in Circles

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Originally Posted by PacCharter View Post
Hi,
I can't help with the 4 makes your considering but am curious to know why you've discounted the other models, particularly Lagoon. I've had a Lagoon440 in the past and done shorter cruising through Asia/Australia but am considering another one and longer cruises. Have you ruled them out for comfort or performance?
Don't get me wrong there are many many people who love Lagoons but some have a flybridge and that didn't suit us (I read as much as i could about good sailing boats and learnt a lot from the Antares website.. very informative and I suppose formed some of my views about what is important for us on a boat ( The protected helm – Antares Catamarans by 40 Grados Sur or https://catamaranconcepts.com/ ) and when we looked around them they was (for us) no USP (unique selling point).. they looked very capable but were not luxurious (compared to X5 or 515 for example) nor fast (compared to catana etc)... so we thought they were a very good "average". But if we are going to spend that sort of money why settle for something just because it got 7/10 on everything? Does that make sense?

Heath
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