Rotating Rigs on Cruising boats?

[Tom Spohn]

The Mac M model has a rotating rig. It seems to work OK, but it is doubtful that it really improves the sailing. Other problems have to do with how to route the control line to the Vang. If the line goes directly to a fixed block near the base of the mast you can virtually lock out the rotation feature when you pull hard on the vang control. Solution is to route the control line along the bottom of the boom or inside the boom to the end where it can be cleated off. Another problem some folks had was mounting heading sensors on the mast for use by the auto pilot. Heading changes when the mast rotates.

[bill good]

I have a 36' cat which was built in 1984 & it was for hi performance cruising/racing. I have turned in into more of a cruiser by adding as much weight as I can!! The rotating mast seems to give 5-8%

Regards Bill Goodward

[cat man do]

I had a rotating rig and loved it.

It made a big difference in speed between being locked straight and rotated . (this was a standard sparmaster section, not a wing) you could actually feel the acceleration when letting the rotation off.

On mine I didnt realy adjust it as I had a fixed set and forget rope that let it rotate to set point and then had ropes coming back along the cabin top to lock in position (only used if doing a long leg on one tack in rough beating conditions to stop the rig rotating when punching through waves)

I am not sure if I would go this way if planning on doing extensive offshore passages as it is undeniably hard on rigging wire, but depends how hard you push the boat. (some would think I was pretty hard)

I replaced my wire (3 stays) after 2.5 years as the forestay had 9 wires out of the 1x19 broken.

If just planning on doing coastal and close to facilities I would definetly have a rotater.

You also need to get your main cut to suit a rotating rig and any prebend you crank into the section (worth bearing in mind)

Just my thoughts

Dave (Happy Holidays all)

[schoonerdog]

A friends Prout 45 has a rotating mast (significantly forward of the standard mast). It's an amazing system, one line trimming for everything, down wind wing on wing sailing is incredible (almost like a square rigged schooner in effect), and reefing very easy, jibing was perfectly simple. Also as it's freestanding there isn't any standing rigging getting in your way. The whole thing is carbon fiber. I think originally it was a 180k upgrade to the boat. I think it's about 12 years old now, been extensively cruised and has no issues what so ever. I think it would be way out of his budget to every repair though should it have issues.

[44'cruisingcat]

Thanks for all the helpful replies. I'm probably going to go with a non-rotating rig - the extra wear and tear on the wire is probably the decider for me. Again, thanks to everyone for passing on the benefit of their experience.

[catty]

Superb choice 44c. From esperience the overall performance gain for a rotating rig on a cruising boat is in practice very small. The negatives such as increased wear and tear on shrouds and the creaking and groaning in light sloppy stuff is a real pain in the proverbial. Having had two cruising cats with and two without , ( the present one has a fixed mast) I wouldn't bother with rotating again.

I suspect the next question will be mast head or fractional? , spreaders or spreaderless?.

Remember most of your crusing will be short handed and hopefully with sheets free a little, which is where spreaderless masthead rigs shine. Tall skinny jibs are a WOFTAM on a short hander cruiser. Ask any half decent sail maker.

You'll spend most of your time trying to slow your boat down to a safe comfortable speed, so something which is quick and easy to reef has got to be a good thing. Irrespective of how much money you throw at bat cars, unless your head to wind in a marina, the biggest friction component is battens on aft swept shrouds.

regards

[Panamuna]

I have a rotating rig on my 24' cruising cat. Happy with it, in fact i think it makes the rig stronger than what the same section would be if not rotating...

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by catty

Superb choice 44c. From esperience the overall performance gain for a rotating rig on a cruising boat is in practice very small.

Definetly depends on the boat, some get a HUGE increase in performance

The negatives such as increased wear and tear on shrouds and the creaking and groaning in light sloppy stuff is a real pain in the proverbial. Having had two cruising cats with and two without , ( the present one has a fixed mast) I wouldn't bother with rotating again

funny, never had any of those problems, just locked off the rotation and ran bungie down to cabin to take slack out of shroud and stop shock in the slop.

I did the same to daggerboards to stop them making noise, noise wasnt enough to make me want mini-keels

I suspect the next question will be mast head or fractional? , spreaders or spreaderless?.

Bob and the other owners would be my first call.

Remember most of your crusing will be short handed and hopefully with sheets free a little, which is where spreaderless masthead rigs shine. Tall skinny jibs are a WOFTAM on a short hander cruiser. Ask any half decent sail maker.

too many wires to fall through and over in my opinion

You'll spend most of your time trying to slow your boat down to a safe comfortable speed, so something which is quick and easy to reef has got to be a good thing. Irrespective of how much money you throw at bat cars, unless your head to wind in a marina, the biggest friction component is battens on aft swept shrouds.

And rotating rigs definetly make this easier IMO


But as I said earlier, I would be inclined to go fixed if cruising remote, although rotating rigs that drop usually have the section retrieved intact because it is usualy one of the 3 wires holding it up that parts, whereas a fixed rig usually breaks the section.

Dave

[Whimsical]

Why not go with a Ballestron rig.

Mike

[catty]

Yer , cat man do ?.
Your last comment sums up your depth of knowledge on the subject

" although rotating rigs that drop usually have the section retrieved intact because it is usualy one of the 3 wires holding it up that parts, whereas a fixed rig usually breaks the section."

What, one gets the wife and little kiddies to drag 300 plus kilos of rig sails and mast section (complete with spreaders, not making ones life any easier)of a 44 ft cat over the rails onto a pitching deck possibly in the dark. GET REAL.
We're talking real world cruising not arm chair fantasy.
Regards

[cat man do]

Nice hit and run troll attack again catty.

My examples are from boats that had rotating rigs that retrieved the section for later use, sure, there was damage and yes there were dificulties but the rig was retrieved and re used


Compared to others where they had a broken section and were stranded waiting for a NEW section.

Maybe

Your last comment sums up your depth of knowledge on the subject

We're talking real world cruising not arm chair fantasy.

Same same sunshine, you obviously missed where I said

But as I said earlier, I would be inclined to go fixed if cruising remote

I am not sure if I would go this way if planning on doing extensive offshore passages as it is undeniably hard on rigging wire, but depends how hard you push the boat.

I was only FOR a rotater if...

If just planning on doing coastal and close to facilities I would definetly have a rotater.

Read before you gob off catty

play the ball, not the man

Dave

[schoonerdog]

Oh, BTW, the prout 45 I saw with a rotating mast was an aerorig. Free standing, rotating mast, so no shrouds. Amazingly easy to use, great performance, astronomical price.

[rob denney]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

Oh, BTW, the prout 45 I saw with a rotating mast was an aerorig. Free standing, rotating mast, so no shrouds. Amazingly easy to use, great performance, astronomical price.

G'day,

The Carbospars aerorigs were not cheap, or light. We have built a number of these (called them Easyrigs) and they were considerably cheaper and lighter. If you design the boat around the rig, and allow for maintenance and replacement on a stayed alloy rig, the easyrig will almost certainly work out cheaper.

Other advantages are:
A single lightly loaded sheet can be dumped to completely depower the rig and stop the boat in any conditions, on any point of sail.
Because the rig is unstayed, it flexes in gusts, hugely increasing the safety factor and reducing the need to reef.
The headsail is clear of the deck, allowing visibility forward and to leeward.
The sails can be hoisted, reefed and lowered on any point of sail, any wind speed. Bat cars and rcb track are not required.
Gybing is far easier (pull in then release the lightly loaded sheet), far safer (no traveller, no boom crashing across, no stays to stop the boom) and in really bad conditions you can granny the rig all the way round the front of the boat.
There is much less maintenance, and what there is is at deck level. If anything does break, the mast won't fall down.
Running square, you ease the boom to 90 degrees or more, the jib poles out to windward automatically.
Reaching, the jib does not need barberhauling
Apart from local reinforcing of the deck and mast step, the layout of a cat is not compromised with local strengthening for chainplates, fore beams, strikers, travellers, mast bulkheads and sheet winches. Not having all these is also a considerable weight saving.

Disadvantages are:
If a round mast is used, there may be more windage, depending on what rig configuration is chosen. If a wing section is used, the drag is way less.
The jib cannot easily be backed during a tack.
Forestay tension can be hard to get, which affects the jib for heavy air upwind and racing. Easy enough to put runners from the hounds to the end of the boom if required for these situations.

It has been generally accepted that multis are too stiff for unstayed rigs. Team Phillips, Jimmy (60' Irens cat), the 35' cat in the attachment and the 50 footer in this video

YouTube - Visionarry Sailing

prove that this is not the case. It is possible to engineer and build an unstayed mast to suit the righting moment and desired use of any boat.

regards,

Rob

[drewke07]

On our 46' Kurt Hughtes design cat we had an alumimum rotating mast that was frought with problems. It was a standard section that would pump and always appeared out of column. The manufacturer was very concerned and sent us numerous upgrades to the spreader angles but the problem was never corrected completely.

Our newer 55' Gold Coast yachts catamaran came with a composite wing mast. 7/8 rig and three wires holding it up. The thing worked flawlessy for 13 years and many thousands of sea miles. what I learned was that the aluminum section was not up for the cycling that occurs in a rotating rig. After just a couple of years of use it had cracks in very odd places.

Electrolisys was also an unstoppable problem. it seemed that shock loads would squish out the plastic sperating the dissimilar metals, nor were we able to keep tek gel in there. In any event, I will not use aluminum in a rotating mast again. If the boat sits at the dock alot it does not really matter, but when that rig was working at sea, it was impossible for us to keep it safe.

[Fard12]

Originally Posted by drewke07

On our 46' Kurt Hughtes design cat we had an alumimum rotating mast that was frought with problems. It was a standard section that would pump and always appeared out of column. The manufacturer was very concerned and sent us numerous upgrades to the spreader angles but the problem was never corrected completely.

Our newer 55' Gold Coast yachts catamaran came with a composite wing mast. 7/8 rig and three wires holding it up. The thing worked flawlessy for 13 years and many thousands of sea miles. what I learned was that the aluminum section was not up for the cycling that occurs in a rotating rig. After just a couple of years of use it had cracks in very odd places.

Electrolisys was also an unstoppable problem. it seemed that shock loads would squish out the plastic sperating the dissimilar metals, nor were we able to keep tek gel in there. In any event, I will not use aluminum in a rotating mast again. If the boat sits at the dock alot it does not really matter, but when that rig was working at sea, it was impossible for us to keep it safe.

I would suggest that the mast was not engineered correctly. It has nothing to do with the “cycling?” effect as you stated.
The mast went out of column due to poor engineering! And that is that.
Electrolysis is not an unstoppable problem due to a rotating mast.
This is only a problem on poorly made masts.(rotating or not) An example of that would be a mill finished mast section or a painted one that Tef-gel or similar wasn’t used where the stainless steel fittings have access to bare alloy. Buy and anodized mast that has been anodized after all holes have been cut in the extrusion from a good mast builder.