Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 5 votes, 4.40 average. Display Modes
Old 09-06-2008, 07:12   #91
Senior Cruiser
 
schoonerdog's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2004
Location: annapolis
Boat: st francis 44 mk II catamaran
Posts: 1,174
Images: 4
Flipped mono, highly trained crew dead, no chance to deploy onboard liferaft. No one has a bulletproof solution, and inversions are not a catamaran thing. All facts considered, multis will resist inversion far longer than any other type of boat. We really need to get over taking a universal issue and pointing it only at one type of boat.

Last missing Texas A&M sailor found dead - CNN.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by knottybuoyz View Post
__________________

__________________
schoonerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 08:53   #92
Kai Nui
Guest

Posts: n/a
The point is pretty clear to me. Cruising, by definition, is a matter of self reliance. Anything that makes us less reliant on outside resources while at sea, is a positive.
Consideration of sitting out there in a disabled vessel, waiting for help to come, vs, taking a proactive approach to right the vessel, and make my way to help, would lead me to choose the latter. May not be a practical way to do this, but it is certainly reasonable to consider it.
I would also add that when I was sailing mono's, I seriously considered the installation of airbags inside the hull to make it "self recoverable from sinking". Practical? Probably not, but I can not imagine anyone anyone not considering some method to make the boat more self reliant.
__________________

__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 09:15   #93
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Location: SF Bay area
Boat: Columbia 57 "Angelique"
Posts: 63
actally there is a comercially availble system to inflate air bags inside a monohull to keep it from sinking. I cannot remember who it is that makes it though---

Personally I think that fire is a far greater danger on a boat than either sinking (mono) or flipping (multi) and it is for that reason that I will not put to sea with out a liferaft in any kind of vessel. Not that I have ever had a fire on board myself, but I have seen a couple boats burn... not good
__________________
cptnandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 10:59   #94
cruiser
 
BigCat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 765
Capsize self-rescue - why?

The self-righting thing wasn't my idea-I was just pitching in on someone else's project. Waiting for help to right your boat is O.K. if you are a coastal cruiser near shore, like the Paragon, as you can probably get help from a boat (vs. a ship,) but help from a ship isn't going to recover your boat. Ship time just costs too much, so if you are rescued by a ship, your boat is a total loss. Richard Woods wrote about this subsequent to his abandoning his cat off S. America.

I think most people are in favor of carrying an EPIRB, but sometimes they don't work or get washed away, and then rescue may take a very long time indeed.

I think the bigger and heavier your cat is, and the less inclined you are to push the envelope by sailing fast, the less likely you are to capsize. BigCat 65 has 500% more righting moment than a Conser 47, but only a bit more than twice the sail area, with masts about the same length, so I'd say its capsize is a lot less likely. This is one reason why I favor what I call a 'little big boat,' meaning not much of a deck house, and not very wide hulls without shelves. For interior space, you just make it bigger, and thus wider and more stable.

Someone mentioned how high a catamaran floats-in my project, I am filling the bridge deck with floatation foam-a lot of it, more than the designed displacement would require if it weren't a cored boat.

Regarding fire-yes, that is a big concern of mine. I am using fire retardant resin in my project, and all the fire gear required on a U.S. 149 passenger boat-which is a lot of fire gear.
__________________
BigCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 11:44   #95
Registered User
 
Aussiesuede's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC & Seattle, WA
Posts: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by knottybuoyz View Post
Racing boats being sailed hard are much more likely to go over than cruisers obviously. Heck, not even all racing mono's are self righting. Case and point:

http://render1.snapfish.com/render2/.../of=50,590,396
__________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. - (George Carlin)
Aussiesuede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 12:01   #96
Senior Cruiser
 
sandy daugherty's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: near Annapolis
Boat: PDQ 36 & Atlantic 42
Posts: 1,178
I don't have any definative numbers, but I believe that any plans to self right a cruising catamaran or trimaran must not plan on an intact rig. It may have just stuck in my mind but I have a ffeling that at least half of the inversions I have looked at lost their rigs, and several had to be cut away to prevent further damage to the hulls.

One other point. If the weather has been bad enough to flip a cruiser, what kind of shape do you expect the crew to be in, and are you thinking you'll now be floating in calm water? just crawling up on an inverted bridge deck may completely exhaust all your resources.
__________________
sandy daugherty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 12:16   #97
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy daugherty View Post
I believe that any plans to self right a cruising catamaran or trimaran must not plan on an intact rig. It may have just stuck in my mind but I have a ffeling that at least half of the inversions I have looked at lost their rigs, and several had to be cut away to prevent further damage to the hulls.
That has always been my concern with these "pull an air bag up your mast " theories.

Personally, I would rather spend the time and money having a boat that is less likely to do this, and has the equipment to survive in bad weather. I distrust the concept of the really light catamaran for short handed ocean use, and prefer the concept of the more robust but slower cat.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 12:23   #98
Kai Nui
Guest

Posts: n/a
This is true, but you also have to remember that the more you increase your options, the more you increase the probability that you will survive, and that your boat will be recoverable. I agree that race boats are a different animal. I also agree that, as mentioned before on this board, the probability of a cruising multi capsizing is likely less than the probability of a mono sinking. I also agree that if a cruising multi turtles, it is likely do to an avoidable action by the crew. So, first and foremost, focus should be on avoiding the situation. Second should be focus on how to deal with it in the case that it happens. Both should be considered, and solutions should be sought. Or, we could just stay home where it is safe, and die of old age.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 12:46   #99
Registered User
 
SelkirkWind's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sandpoint, ID, USA
Boat: Leopard 46, The Selkirk Grace
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
I must admit to also wondering what the point is here, making a multi self recoverable from capsize is like making a mono self recoverable from sinking.
Dang, I could not have said that better!
__________________
SelkirkWind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2008, 18:51   #100
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
I must admit to also wondering what the point is here, making a multi self recoverable from capsize is like making a mono self recoverable from sinking.
The mono would be easier.
A big bag that would fill the inside.
Inflate.
A kit of epoxy and stuff to plug any hole.
Plug.
Done.

OR

Folding inflatable ama's....wait that's a tri.............
__________________
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2008, 14:00   #101
cruiser
 
BigCat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 765
"Hang-out" tarp

This link shows the crew hanging out on a tramp that is above the water with the (racing) tri capsized. the horse's mouth: Hanging Out On A Capsized Triamaran.

Looking at this gave me the idea that you could attach pad eyes between the waterline on the hulls and attach a tramp or tarp as a place to hang out on your upside down cat. This would be necessary as a cruising cat wouldn't float as high as this racing tri, so you'd need to create a higher 'deck'
__________________
BigCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2008, 14:13   #102
cruiser
 
BigCat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 765
This 40' daycharter cat capsized in Hawaii, too-

This 40' daycharter cat capsized in Hawaii, too-

Hawaii Ocean Industry Magazine Archives

To see the boat:

Exclusive Hawaii Sailing Charters, Private Hawaii Sailing Charters

Like the Paragon, it is a very light, go-fast cat, though I don't have any design statistics for it.
__________________
BigCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2008, 14:41   #103
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,453
Images: 69
A lot of this discussion seems to have been about righting a multi by lifting one hull over the other. From what I've seen, it isn't done this way. Certainly not for boats with engines. Bow over stern, using the weight of the engines to helpsink the stern seems to be the "norm" (It doesn't happen often enough to be considered "normal" IMHO)
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2008, 15:48   #104
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,453
Images: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by catty View Post
I think the question should be why sail a boat that has a high chance of requiring outside assistance.
With a claimed 70,000 miles of multihull sailing behind you, maybe you should be able to tell us?
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2008, 16:10   #105
cruiser
 
BigCat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 765
Apparently, this FP 35 (a Tobago) capsized twice-

April 20, 2007

https://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/586/153892/
__________________

__________________
BigCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 20:51.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.