Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 03-02-2013, 18:21   #121
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
What seems ridiculous to me is this thread that is now on its eighth page.

What seems to keep it going are those that apparently want to own a Seawind but don't want to pay the going prices. I guess they haven't heard of the concepts of a free market economy and supply and demand. Prices are as the are and its been proven to you with results from soldboat.com both in the US and OZ. To keep wishing or trying to prove things aren't the way the are is just more ... But maybe it feels good when you stop.
Ya hit the nail in the head. Anytime I'm buying something I always pay to much yet sell for not enough!
__________________

__________________
smj is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 09:49   #122
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: Seawind 1160 #50, 41 feet
Posts: 97
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
What seems ridiculous to me is this thread that is now on its eighth page.

What seems to keep it going are those that apparently want to own a Seawind but don't want to pay the going prices. I guess they haven't heard of the concepts of a free market economy and supply and demand. Prices are as the are and its been proven to you with results from soldboat.com both in the US and OZ. To keep wishing or trying to prove things aren't the way the are is just more ... But maybe it feels good when you stop.
No one is forcing you to read/post to this thread...

I would argue that one boat a year does not show support for a price. And if the boat owners weren't pricing their boats too high, why would the asking price have dropped from $425 to $375k in the last few months? Clearly supply and demand is working quite well on Seawind prices. The question is where is the bottom...
__________________

__________________
Strikhedonia is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 12:12   #123
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 1,959
Images: 10
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnfish View Post
No one is forcing you to read/post to this thread...

I would argue that one boat a year does not show support for a price. And if the boat owners weren't pricing their boats too high, why would the asking price have dropped from $425 to $375k in the last few months? Clearly supply and demand is working quite well on Seawind prices. The question is where is the bottom...
I suspect what some folks find silly about trying to use conventional economic methods to assess what is going on in the Seawind market is there are so few of these boats and even fewer for sale and even fewer sold.

A single owner may advertise a boat for sale because his wife orders him to do so and he will price it at a level he knows is to high to attract buyers. Another single owner may have died and his children, who have no interest in sailing, may offer the boat at a price so low as to assure a quick sale.

I recently had a Seawind 1000 surveyed and the surveyor went to some length in his report to explain that putting a value on the boat was not easy because so few Seawinds had sold and even fewer had sold in the Southeast US where the survey was performed.

Many of us may wish Seawinds, and many other boats as well, had lower prices. I wish prices of gas, milk, bread, and lots of other things had lower prices. But I don't start threads about it.
__________________
tomfl is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 16:01   #124
Registered User
 
Barra's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Western Australia
Boat: between boats
Posts: 808
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doodles View Post
What seems ridiculous to me is this thread that is now on its eighth page.

What seems to keep it going are those that apparently want to own a Seawind but don't want to pay the going prices. I guess they haven't heard of the concepts of a free market economy and supply and demand. Prices are as the are and its been proven to you with results from soldboat.com both in the US and OZ. To keep wishing or trying to prove things aren't the way the are is just more ... But maybe it feels good when you stop.
Fully Agree Doodles!!! Amazing run on this post and MNfish you keep coming back with cloth in your ears mate!
__________________
Barra is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 18:59   #125
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: Seawind 1160 #50, 41 feet
Posts: 97
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

Contrary to the blowhards and some (not all) of the brokers (who have a vested interest in keeping prices high), I have found this ongoing dialog interesting and has been valuable.

Since it is hard to follow nine pages of posts, I have put together the posts in this thread that I found interesting and valuable to my questioning the Seawind 1160 prices thank all of you for the posts, I really appreciate your insights!
  • 12/22/12 (cat man do) Muppets in Australia have been happy to pay 100% more for damn near everything for so long, but things are changing.
  • 12/22/12 (rossad) There is this group of people that all know and watch the club of Seawinds owners closely as they themselves are part of the club and owner of a Seawind. Basically it creates a belief that my boat must be worth this much cause my club members boat is worth it too. These cat's are good though, and many people know it.
  • 12/22/12 (Nessus) I would assume that most of these cats were mortgaged. Since you pay your interest upfront there's not a lot of equity in these vessels. The owners may be in a position where they can't or or not willing to come out of pocket to make the sale.
  • 12/22/12 (Coops) It has taken a while, but yes, prices are falling rapidly for boats over here. Not before time either, it used to be that a boat was a fixed price regardless of condition and if it was a good one it just sold quicker. Now, you can see a lot of bargains around so to think that you will not lose on a boat at the moment is a fool's paradise i am afraid.
  • In case you think that i do not have any particular knowledge of this, i follow boat prices very closely, have done for 40 years, and work in a chandlery so deal with folks who all say the same thing. Difficult to move anything no matter what end of the market we are talking about.
  • 12/23/12 (Capt Rottnest) I reckon housing prices has a lot to do with price of those cats. They are still high in oz, a Seawind looks to about the median price for a house in all capital cities, if only looking at suburbs remotely close to the coast they are roughly half those median prices. Thus retirees can afford them with just a proportion of their home's equity. Wait for a drop in the real estate market and see used seawinds drop too.
  • 02/02/13 (jostalli) As it turns out all Seawind prices are ridiculous. Where are the threads "Hey new Seawind owner here!"? There aren't any because evidently nobody is buying a Seawind.
  • 02/04/13 (Fishspearit) I'll be happy to correct you. Soldboats shows 3 sold. One in FL and two in CA, all close to or over $400K. Those are just the 1160's. More might have been sold privately. Maybe you should consider working with a Buyer's broker, you wouldn't have to wonder about these things. I'm curious how you would expect to 'hear about' the sales any other way?
  • 02/04/13 (tomfl) There are lots of threads about lack of specifics on boat sales. Same goes for prices of boats that have been sold. There are also lots of threads about just why boats are offered for sale. There seems to be some agreement that at times an owner will put a boat up for sale at an unrealistic price because his wife wants the boat up for sale. There are also owners who put a boat up for sale at an unrealistic price in hopes someone might pay it. Part of the problem with Seawinds is there are not a lot of them around, and even fewer for sale. They also seem to have some very happy owners who really like their boats. All these things combine to make any analysis of just what a Seawind sells for a tall order.

My positions throughout this exchange:
  1. 2006-2007 Seawinds were sold NEW for about $400k, with outfitting for cruising an owner is probably into it $475k-$500k. 40 foot FPs from the same time are listed for about $240K, 40 foot Lagoons are about $270k
  2. I totally agree, sell your Seawind for whatever you can get. Free market - yes, absolutely agree. My point was that Seawind 1160s are NOT selling. A couple boats per year on a fleet of 120 is not impressive. Typical turnover would be about 7 years which would equate to 17 per year, far more than the 2-3 per year I have seen. This to me is yet another indicator that they are overpriced.
  3. Interesting development - Three 1160's below $400k in the US or Bahamas, including one at auction with a starting price of $325. Looks like, at least in North America, prices are falling faster than I expected. The Cool Runnings Seawind 1160 at auction failed to receive any bids at the starting price of $325K. This looked to be a well equipped boat in excellent condition.
  4. I'm thinking that for Seawinds to sell in a reasonable time (3-6 months), for a boat in good condition, the price would need to be $300k to $325k. However an even lower price might be needed to move a Seawind, since the January auction failed to get any bids at the opening price of $325k (which surprised me).
  5. Waiting 2 years to sell a Seawind 1160 is expensive: Marina fees (on the hard) and insurance must be $8k - $10K - Lost earned income if you had $400k invested - another $12k - Maintenance (even on the hard things deteriorate) $2k - $4k - Per year you are looking at $22k to $26k. When you sell the boat (assuming you use a broker) that is another $40k. So if it takes two years to sell, you are looking at $84k to $92k - still hovering around $100k to get a Seawind sold.
  6. I would argue that one boat a year does not show support for a price. And if the boat owners weren't pricing their boats too high, why would the asking price have dropped from $425 to $375k in the last few months? Clearly supply and demand is working quite well on Seawind prices. The question is where is the bottom...
Assuming the prices become reasonable (in my opinion of what reasonable is) I will become a happy Seawind 1160 owner if Im wrong and they stay high then I will continue to enjoy them from afar. Thanks again to all the valuable insights.
__________________
Strikhedonia is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:07   #126
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 260
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

Well said.

My thought on Seawind is that I don't think about Seawind outside of this thread. Are you sure you really want one?
__________________
jostalli is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:11   #127
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Or maybe the owners of Seawinds like their boats so much they don't care if they sell or not. Obviously from what you say Seawinds aren't selling for what you consider a reasonable price. Also obviously none of the Seawind owners are dropping their prices to what you consider a reasonable price. So I would guess that the Seawind owners don't consider your idea of their boats value as being reasonable or they love their boats so much they don't care if they sell or not. Pretty simple if you think about it.
__________________
smj is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:15   #128
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by jostalli View Post
Well said.

My thought on Seawind is that I don't think about Seawind outside of this thread. Are you sure you really want one?
I would guess he does and for good reasons, but maybe can't stomach their popularity and high values.
__________________
smj is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:16   #129
Registered User
 
tomfl's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Florida
Boat: Seawind 1000xl
Posts: 1,959
Images: 10
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

One more thing to add to my analysis. Not only does the low number of Seawinds and even lower number of Seawinds for sale many any economic analysis almost useless. Comparing Seawind prices to the prices of cats like a Lagoon is just plain silly.

Every year there are a large number of Lagoons that come out of the charter market with much lower prices than Lagoons that have an owners layout. It is easy to find lots of threads about the difference in prices of owner's Lagoons compared to the price of out of charter Lagoons.
__________________
tomfl is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:21   #130
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: Seawind 1160 #50, 41 feet
Posts: 97
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Or maybe the owners of Seawinds like their boats so much they don't care if they sell or not. Obviously from what you say Seawinds aren't selling for what you consider a reasonable price. Also obviously none of the Seawind owners are dropping their prices to what you consider a reasonable price. So I would guess that the Seawind owners don't consider your idea of their boats value as being reasonable or they love their boats so much they don't care if they sell or not. Pretty simple if you think about it.
I would say that a $50k reduction in the last year is an indicator of the pricing coming down. How far (or if) they will continue to fall I have no idea...
__________________
Strikhedonia is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:25   #131
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnfish View Post

I would say that a $50k reduction in the last year is an indicator of the pricing coming down. How far (or if) they will continue to fall I have no idea...
Would that be a reduction in one Seawind or all the Seawinds. If one owner drops the price by $50k they want to sell. Doesn't hold true for all the boats. If you really want a Seawind pony up and pay the price. If they are to expensive there are quite a few other decent cats for a lower price.
__________________
smj is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:31   #132
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: Seawind 1160 #50, 41 feet
Posts: 97
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomfl View Post
One more thing to add to my analysis. Not only does the low number of Seawinds and even lower number of Seawinds for sale many any economic analysis almost useless. Comparing Seawind prices to the prices of cats like a Lagoon is just plain silly.

Every year there are a large number of Lagoons that come out of the charter market with much lower prices than Lagoons that have an owners layout. It is easy to find lots of threads about the difference in prices of owner's Lagoons compared to the price of out of charter Lagoons.
Your posts have really given me some great things to think about, thanks.

In my original post where I listed "40 foot FPs from the same time are listed for about $240K, 40 foot Lagoons are about $270k" were taken from the same year boats (2006/2007) with similar equipment (and owners layout). I also filtered out all but the top condition FPs and Lagoons in coming to these prices. I agree charter boats are worth less but after being out of charter for 4-5 years (and the new owners have refurbished them) I feel the prices become closer to a non-charter boat. I'm not saying a Lagoon should ever be the same price (or within $40k) as a Seawind but using general pricing comparisons between the two isn't silly.
__________________
Strikhedonia is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:33   #133
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: La Paz, Mexico
Boat: Seawind 1160 #50, 41 feet
Posts: 97
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Would that be a reduction in one Seawind or all the Seawinds. If one owner drops the price by $50k they want to sell. Doesn't hold true for all the boats. If you really want a Seawind pony up and pay the price. If they are to expensive there are quite a few other decent cats for a lower price.
When two out of three US based Seawinds 1160 drop their prices $50k and $75K, it is clearly a trend. Sorry if it hurts your business and you don't want to see it, but it doesn't make it any less true.
__________________
Strikhedonia is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:46   #134
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnfish View Post

When two out of three US based Seawinds 1160 drop their prices $50k and $75K, it is clearly a trend. Sorry if it hurts your business and you don't want to see it, but it doesn't make it any less true.
I have no commercial link to Seawind just owned two Seawind 1000's and really like their line of boats. If the owners have dropped the prices that much it's a sign they want to sell so make a low offer and see what happens. I reread your first post and would agree that a 7 year old Seawind probably won't sell for what it sold for new. But I would guess that a 15 year old Seawind in good shape would probably sell for the same as or maybe higher than what it cost originally. I guess a lot depends on the market at the time. I think used cat prices will start to slowly escalate so it may be a good time to buy.
__________________
smj is offline  
Old 04-02-2013, 19:50   #135
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brisbane
Boat: Lightwave 45 under construction .Previous self built Roberts 36
Posts: 186
Re: Ridiculous Seawind 1160 Prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Would that be a reduction in one Seawind or all the Seawinds. If one owner drops the price by $50k they want to sell. Doesn't hold true for all the boats. If you really want a Seawind pony up and pay the price. If they are to expensive there are quite a few other decent cats for a lower price.
Well said. We could replace 'seawind' in this thread with say 'Gunboat' and have the same conversation, with lots of assumptions about the motives of particular owners.

Presumably with new prices now 15% lower from the Vietnam factory that will likley have some impact on lowering 2nd prices, but the market is what it is. No-one has to buy or sell at any particular price point.

As mentioned before comparing one model & brand with another is pretty meaningless unless specs, build etc. are similar. I could go on about rediculous BMW M3 prices compared to say Camry prices, ( and no I do mean to imply that the M3 is a substitute for Seawind and Lagoon for Camry).


Anway, its been an amusing thread on many levels.
__________________

__________________
Glenn C is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
Seawind

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.