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Old 11-11-2013, 10:21   #46
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

Wing sailor, welcome to CF and as the OP of this thread I'm glad you arrived here. Are you aware of any current wing sail development? For me, whatever I'm using to create lift (thrust), I want the best bang for wing (or sail) area. IMHO, this can only be obtained with a rigid wing, not a sail forced to conform with battens and the like. The same concept for increased lift with STOL aircraft, using a leading edge deployed slat could be used for a boat. Just imagine all the wing designs already out there that people have crunched the numbers on for aviation could be used for sailing. Gone are the days of regular replacement of sails at $15K a pop. Gone are the days of fighting the sails in high winds to reduce sail, and so much more. Like I said earlier, when our grandkids are old farts like us and are out cruising, they just might be cruising using rigid wings instead of sails.
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:22   #47
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

One can tack downwind and generate their own apparent wind. Conventional multihulls do it all the time. Oh, and remember the America's Cup? You just need a boat that can get off of displacement mode and scoot.
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:37   #48
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

Deck officer,
You understand, as you say the days of fighting the sails in high winds could be over. The high lift devices are based on existing aircraft knowledge, but have to be modified for the slower airspeeds experienced by a boat. this is the arcane world of reynolds numbers, laminar flow, turbulent flow and damn nigh on witchcraft. I used to fly gliders as well as hang gliders so I have a feel for what wings can do. There is another potential in all this and that is for those of a good vintage to continue sailing in a comfortable size of boat but without all the grunt required to handle a rig. I know of a few situations where this has meant reducing boat size. And of course those who have seen the AC catamarans with wing sails will want to share the same technology. This is the same transfer of technology that starts on the formula one track and is applied to your car.
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:41   #49
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

Roy M, I have sailed the apparent wind, close hauled down wind on a very light trimaran.
Larinka is a cruiseing boat with all the weight of comforts, even a washing machine.But even so we can play the apparent wind when down wind.
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:46   #50
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

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Down wind is like a plane in landing configuration, flaps deployed for maximum lift and reduced stall speed
?? A wing with a resultant wind from behind it (downwind) is stalled and therefore no longer works as a wing.

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For Larinka the wing was put into maximum high lift configuration with maximum rudder angle, simple.
Do you mean that the wing was sideways on to the wind?

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The level of technology is not scary but I recognize the reluctance to rely on electrickery. There is a manual system as back up.I think the same thoughts about dependence on GPS and AIS.
Indeed.
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Old 11-11-2013, 10:47   #51
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

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Deck officer,
You understand, as you say the days of fighting the sails in high winds could be over. The high lift devices are based on existing aircraft knowledge, but have to be modified for the slower airspeeds experienced by a boat. this is the arcane world of reynolds numbers, laminar flow, turbulent flow and damn nigh on witchcraft. I used to fly gliders as well as hang gliders so I have a feel for what wings can do. There is another potential in all this and that is for those of a good vintage to continue sailing in a comfortable size of boat but without all the grunt required to handle a rig. I know of a few situations where this has meant reducing boat size. And of course those who have seen the AC catamarans with wing sails will want to share the same technology. This is the same transfer of technology that starts on the formula one track and is applied to your car.
Small world. I used to be the Seagull dealer in Sacramento.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:00   #52
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

Down wind.The wing has maximum deployment of leading pert and trailing part to generate maximum thrust, it's angle to the apparent wind is controlled by the tail (aero rudder). This angle is kept constant so the wing always flying.The boat direction is often modified to generate the best apparent wind, with consideration for required course and prevailing conditions. I have never had the opportunity to experiment with the wing stalled down wind as compared to flying downwind. and Bob that is an early hang glider, when I got into the sport we had floating cross tubes and variable sail camber.
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Old 11-11-2013, 11:17   #53
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

Wing sailor,

Yes, the picture is 30 years old. This is how I "fly" now.......


But currently looking at these to get off the ground again.
http://justaircraft.com/media/Kitpla...tSuperSTOL.pdf


Do you have any pictures you could post from your time on Larinka? I would love to see them as I'm sure others following this thread would too.
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Old 11-11-2013, 12:35   #54
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

Seems to me that Chris White's new MastFoil system produces some of the advantages of the Wingsail without computers and windage and mass high aloft.
On the other hand, I don't know anything about wings.
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Old 11-11-2013, 13:02   #55
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

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Seems to me that Chris White's new MastFoil system produces some of the advantages of the Wingsail without computers and windage and mass high aloft.
On the other hand, I don't know anything about wings.
Your a sailor, you know more about wings than you think.
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Old 11-11-2013, 13:51   #56
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

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Seems to me that Chris White's new MastFoil system produces some of the advantages of the Wingsail without computers and windage and mass high aloft.
On the other hand, I don't know anything about wings.
I was going to suggest that too. We saw her at the Annapolis boat show. Not quite our cup of tea, but I was impressed with the innovation.
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Old 13-11-2013, 02:22   #57
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

I would love to see the polars for this boat.

How does it do for racing? Downwind, you can't take advantage of the "scoop" power of a spinnaker. But maybe it does fine without that? I have no idea.
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Old 14-11-2013, 07:31   #58
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

Larinka's wing sail weigh's 600 kg and the bearing 60 kg, not 1 tonne.
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Old 14-11-2013, 07:43   #59
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

I will have a look at Chris White's mast foil system, it sounds interesting. Anyone who wants to see pictures of Larinka can find them online, just look for Yacht Larinka. There are no Polars for Larinka.
It is a cruising boat with all the stuff of comfortable living, i.e. weight. Down wind the wing is at it's maximum drive geometry, except in the strong stuff. We once had a trip up the English Channel in 40 knots of wind , right up the chuff! the wing was reduced in drive ( aero rudder angle and flap angle) to slow the boat, beyond 14 knots was becoming uncomfortable.
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Old 27-01-2014, 20:15   #60
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Re: Remember the Walker Wingsail ?

I recently came across the work Peter Worsley has been doing on the wingsail at the Amateur Yacht Research Society site www.ayrs.org. Peter has been working with scale models to develop self steering control system that don't require any electrical power. His ideas have been scaled up by the Swedish company Dellencat and can be seen at http://www.dellencat.se
From what I gather the is no need to reef just let the sail weather cock when not sailing, that the wing is significantly more efficient so a smaller area is required and weight can be offset by not needing rigging and sail handling equipment.
The wingsail hasn't died with Walker and aesthetics are an ever moving feast, well done all those practical thinkers. I'm still reeling from the America's Cup.
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