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Old 24-01-2014, 15:57   #1
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relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

I am trying to get an idea of VMG of different cats in the 47-55ft range.

Wind is 12 TWS Boat full payload.

Lets say a Gunboat 48 is a "10" on a beat in terms of VMG

What are peoples experiences or thoughts of the following cats:

Outreme 50/55 lt/std - "9 -10" ??
Catana 471 - "7.5"
FP Marquesas 56 - 4??
Leopard 47 - ???
Oram 44 - 8 ???
Oram 52 - 10 ???
Looping 50 - 8 ???
Freydis 46/49 - 8
St.Fransis 50 - 5??

Feel free to add boats.
Do people agree with these relative numbers? I come from a mono hull racing back ground. So I am trying to zone in a performance/ comfort balance.
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Old 24-01-2014, 16:11   #2
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

Wouldn't it be better to use real numbers rather than a subjective "out of ten"?

i.e. what would the actual VMG be to windward in light seas at 12Knn TWS for those boats making the best heading they could? I'd be far more interested in those figures.
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Old 24-01-2014, 16:15   #3
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

I agree with you that real numbers would be better, but as I have no first hand knowledge I started with relative numbers. If anyone knows what these cats will do please add the true data.
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Old 24-01-2014, 16:19   #4
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

Without speed polars this is fruitless, since there can't be more than a few people that know what a Gunboat 48 does in quantifiable terms. Sorry.

My PDQ 32/34 is about 5.0 knots VMG in 12 knots.
I don't know what "full boat payload" means; I suspect it will mean something different to everyone. If I have full tanks, bikes, kayaks, provision for a week, and bring the family and friends, she will be slower. A dirty bottom, chop, or foul tide hurt too.

A better question is "what is your VMG to windward in 12 knots?"
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Old 24-01-2014, 16:30   #5
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

Oram 44C. In 12 knots TWS we'd be doing around 8.5 knots boatspeed at 30 degrees apparent. VMG around 5.5 knots.
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Old 24-01-2014, 17:08   #6
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

The ones that I've sailed;
12 kts true,at 30 degrees

Gunboat 62: 9-9.2 kts
Catana 58 : 8,1-8,3 kts

Any FP cat with folding props : 6,5 to 7.2 kts. (these cats won't point to 30 so the + quite a bit of leeway as they don't have a dagger board, hence, VMG should be much slower..

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Old 24-01-2014, 18:15   #7
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

You will want to add all am boat data ino an xls and run an analysis. Then you get your out of ten scores. Otherwise it is just all a mix of opinionated opinions, wishful musings and armchair dreams.

I think you may be able to collect some data on line speeds of the am boats BUT very few owners note VMG as I know most people do not get the idea of what vmg is, why it is important and how to use it UNLESS they are of the racing breed. Ever noticed how few sailors set their plotters to display vmg???

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Old 24-01-2014, 18:25   #8
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

"Without speed polars this is fruitless, since there can't be more than a few people that know what a Gunboat 48 does in quantifiable terms. Sorry."

Polars for all these boats is not easy to get. Do you have sources?
The point of my question is to find out what boats fit into the middle ground of cat performance. Everbody knows what the fast and slows boats are. If there are some real numbers great, but looking around I have not seen them. That is why I thought a relative number could start a discussion. As I said in the first post I am trying to get idea of what boats have a balance between performance and comfort.

I was more thinking a few people know what a Catana 471 will do up wind in 12 TWS. If it has a number " " How does a Leopard 47 or StFransis compare? If someone has real numbers great if not, then are they close or in different leagues. If people put out numbers and the group has a consensus then one could narrow a list down.
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Old 24-01-2014, 20:08   #9
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian cat View Post
"Without speed polars this is fruitless, since there can't be more than a few people that know what a Gunboat 48 does in quantifiable terms. Sorry."

Polars for all these boats is not easy to get. Do you have sources?
The point of my question is to find out what boats fit into the middle ground of cat performance. Everbody knows what the fast and slows boats are. If there are some real numbers great, but looking around I have not seen them. That is why I thought a relative number could start a discussion. As I said in the first post I am trying to get idea of what boats have a balance between performance and comfort.

I was more thinking a few people know what a Catana 471 will do up wind in 12 TWS. If it has a number " " How does a Leopard 47 or StFransis compare? If someone has real numbers great if not, then are they close or in different leagues. If people put out numbers and the group has a consensus then one could narrow a list down.

I think the st Francis 50 should move up a bit in your list, I don't remember exact speeds at 12 knots or vmg but we did leave port simultaneously with 4 other monos on passage that none of us could lay direct and after several hours we were ahead and up wind of everyone. Surprised all of them because everyone knows fixed keel cat can not sail upwind... I recall one was a tayana 48, don't remember the other models but all around 50'. As for overall speed she could beat a Catana 47 and we won an overnight passage with an outremer 49, and then lost the next race to them under slightly different conditions. We we're beat by an Ocean cat 48 pretty good once and she was not as fast as my Outremer 50.
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Old 24-01-2014, 20:13   #10
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

Thanks Dave for the info. A thought I had is that what I have suggested is no different that PHRF and it is used all over north america.
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Old 24-01-2014, 20:17   #11
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

Quote:
Originally Posted by canadian cat View Post
... Everybody knows what the fast and slows boats are...
Any sentence that starts with "everybody knows" ends badly. You're asking for anecdotal comparisons, unless they were racing, in which case they know the VMG, I am certain.

"I passed such-and-such a boat by..." is just as pointless; were they just cruising, was the bottom dirty, were they loaded down for a passage? I've blown by boats that were certainly faster than mine, but were sailed by novice crews.

If you find PHRFs on those, please post them. Very few cruising cats are listed, from what I know. Calculated ratings are often used.
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Old 24-01-2014, 20:18   #12
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

All I am looking for is a list of cats that sail up wind well when the wind is not too strong.
updated list:
Gunboat 48 - 10
Outreme 50/55 lt/std - "9 -10"
Oram 52 - 10 ???
Looping 50 - 8 -8.5
Oram 44 - 8
Freydis 46/49 - 8
Ocean cat - 8
St.Fransis 50 - 7.5
Catana 471 - "6.5"
Leopard 47 - ???
FP Marquesas 56 - 4??
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Old 24-01-2014, 20:35   #13
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
"I passed such-and-such a boat by..." is just as pointless; were they just cruising, was the bottom dirty, were they loaded down for a passage? I've blown by boats that were certainly faster than mine, but were sailed by novice crews.

You make a valid point but I think the list is in better order now.
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Old 25-01-2014, 02:11   #14
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

Who sails to windward?
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Old 25-01-2014, 02:29   #15
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Re: relative VMG of cats while beating 12 TWS

Someone doing offshore passages. Its amazing if you sail offshore enough to actually realize just how much windward sailing you have to do. Sure you can sail one passage and it can be all down wind but when you sail quite a bit you get lots of upwind sailing.
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