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Old 22-06-2008, 18:16   #16
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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
It's extremely unlikely that the turning force on the sail could overpower both rudders. In a mono the boat heels over, which puts the driving effort of the sail well outboard from the rudder, while at the same time making the rudder less effective. This doesn't happen with a cat.

Also with cruising mono's you are usually limited to hullspeed, which can allow for much higher apparent wind when running.
Thanks,

It makes sense.

Can you tell I have never had to reef a large cat going down wind?

I do need to see that some day.
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Old 22-06-2008, 18:50   #17
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The ability to round up with wind aft of abeam into the wind to reef may be limited by the sea state making that manoevre an unsafe one regardless of sail boat type so one should use or keep some other tactic in mind if unable to reef off the wind.

This on a mono, so not meant as a recommendation for cats (although some carry part of their forward sailplan well aft), to avoid that circumstance of being forced into a risky rounding up arising when sailing with wind aft of abeam we get down to foresail only as soon as windspeed gives us hull speed with that, normally around 20-25 knots. We then just keep reefing the genoa up on its reefer/furler until around 45 knots then change to heavy weather jib on inner forestay.

There may be similar tactics for cats, I wonder?
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Old 22-06-2008, 18:54   #18
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Same plan

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Originally Posted by JABULANI View Post
We had intermediate backstays as well as a double backstay. Also had a battcar system from Tidesmarine. We could not reef going downwind before we put the battcar system is. There was too much pressure on the battens at the mast. To reef we would loosen the boomvang and the main sheet but try to keep the battens from curling around the backstays and then gradually drop the main. The main did not come down by itself because of the pressure. However it always worked. I guess with a cat the sail and battens are bigger so they would be more likely to wrap around the stay.
Raymond
Good answer regarding your mono experience - you will reef the cat the same way. You won't have a backstay, but your shrouds will be swept back some. We pull the traveler in a bit, sheet the main in a bit and work it down with the tack line. Generally works ok.
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Old 23-06-2008, 01:14   #19
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especially when it is blowing 25 knots with 10-12' seas.
Raymond
You reefed too late - LOL...
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Old 23-06-2008, 09:47   #20
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It is difficult to get the mainsail down when it is tight against the shrouds but the answer is easy.

Fit a mainsail downhaul to the headboard

Pull on it and the sail always comes down.

if you have a mainsail luff over about 45ft, so say a cat over 35ft, then you should use good batten cars and not rely on the cheap slides usually supplied by the production boatyards.

Hope this helps. I have more catamaran sailing tips on my website

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Old 23-06-2008, 11:08   #21
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Its good to hear from you, Mr. Woods. I highly value your advice. How likely is a cruising cat to broach?

Therapy: my lazy jacks pull forward to the mast. My lazy crew does not. We reef at 20 'cuz Simon sez. That's Simon Slater, the builder. He also says that the last sail up is the main at the second reef, or third if there is one. Then its drogue city off the transom if there's sea room, or a chute off the bow if not.
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Old 23-06-2008, 13:17   #22
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I have never broached a multihull and I've not heard of anyone doing so. But it might be possible with a slow heavy narrow boat that behaves like a monohull and cannot (in effect) sail away from a broaching gust.

It's not something you need worry about.

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Old 23-06-2008, 20:11   #23
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Therapy: my lazy jacks pull forward to the mast. My lazy crew does not. We reef at 20 'cuz Simon sez. That's Simon Slater, the builder. He also says that the last sail up is the main at the second reef, or third if there is one. Then its drogue city off the transom if there's sea room, or a chute off the bow if not.
Check.
..........
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Old 27-06-2008, 12:56   #24
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No shrouds = no fears

I became a believer in not needing to turn into the wind after being unable to do so in 25' seas, because I didn't dare turn into the wind in such high waves. (The storm came up suddenly in the night, in the mid-Pacific, 37 years ago.) None of my designs need to be turned to windward to reef, because they have no shrouds. I sailed a boat across the Pacific with unstayed masts, and have no concerns whatsoever about unstayed rigs. 35 years and 50,000 miles later, that boat's masts are still standing and it is still voyaging. My latest design's unstayed rig has had its calculations checked by the USCG as approved for a passenger carrying vessel. Their engineers at the Marine Safety Center checked the method of mast strength calculation, the math, and the intended service in a very windy area and approved it all. Standing rigging has no place on a cruising boat, IMHO.
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Old 27-06-2008, 13:42   #25
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... Standing rigging has no place on a cruising boat, IMHO.
Notwithstanding the obvious advantages of a robust free-standing rig, this may explain, in part, why your thinking remains "unconventional".
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Old 27-06-2008, 15:06   #26
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Unstayed rigs - Boing doesn't use them, why should we?

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Notwithstanding the obvious advantages of a robust free-standing rig, this may explain, in part, why your thinking remains "unconventional".
Yes, I know my view is not the popular one, but I attribute that primarily to the fact that most people simply don't trust what I know from personal experience to be a true fact, which is that an unstayed rig is not less, but rather more reliable that a stayed one. The slightly greater weight is not a significant factor on a cruising boat, even on a fast cruising boat, and the slightly greater windage can be turned into less than stayed rig windage with foil fairings, either hard or soft. As many an advocate has pointed out, airplanes used to have stays, too. The Wright brothers used them, but visualize a 757 with them and you'll laugh.

The posts on this thread just go to validate my views, IMHO. There are no reefing problems on unstayed rigs-and reefing problems are not only a huge amount of work and worry, but are very dangerous.
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Old 27-06-2008, 20:38   #27
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The posts on this thread just go to validate my views, IMHO. There are no reefing problems on unstayed rigs-and reefing problems are not only a huge amount of work and worry, but are very dangerous.
From my reading of this thread it appeared to me that there was no major problem reefing downwind with a cat anyway? (With the proviso that you have good battcars and a downhaul)
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Old 27-06-2008, 21:53   #28
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Battcars -Biff, Bam, Pow!

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From my reading of this thread it appeared to me that there was no major problem reefing downwind with a cat anyway? (With the proviso that you have good battcars and a downhaul)
Battcars are no doubt an improvement on basic slides, and if catamarans have fewer reefing problems, it is probably because they are more likely to have them than monohulls. However, recent designs also often have lower shrouds that reach waaaay back, especially on cats. This is not a good thing when you are trying to reef while running.

And the cost of batcars, with their requisite special tracks and fittings are very high indeed for large sails-maybe $20,000 per sail. And Murphy sez, what needs bearings may loose its bearings. Another reason I hate stayed rigs is that they are full of expensive goodies that not only fail, but give you the choice of waiting for them to fail, and maybe dismast you, or replacing them, costing mucho $$$$, before they do. Aargh!
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Old 27-06-2008, 21:55   #29
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We have a downhaul. Seriously, sometimes you just have to grind the **** down. Umm, regardless of the number of hulls.
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Old 11-09-2008, 03:40   #30
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All the books I've read, the sum of my experience to date NOTE, say that Cat's don't run down wind. By running initially at 120 deg apparent the boat speed goes up, the apparant shifts forward and the course to maintain apparent moves cloer to downwind generally giving boat speeds faster than the wind. Not neccessarily dead down wind so tacking downwind is used to achieve an objective.
The point is, with a cat it's a 30 deg course change to get the sail off the stays.
The problem with the cat is when you're sailing faster than the wind it is very difficult to judge wind speed so the manouvre to reef is often done too late.
Cat seamanship, I'M TOLD, is having the sail set to match the weather expected, not responding to gusts after they arrive. Sound's good? I'll find out!
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